Plants and Vegetarianism

[Saint Frankenstein]

As an animist, there's not much of a difference between eating a plant or an animal to me, since they all have souls and awareness of their own. I can sympathize with the arguments for vegetarianism and veganism but, at the end of the day, humans are brutal predator animals and almost all life survives by ingesting the energies of other lifeforms. Reality is harsh and brutal. But I do think we need to treat the other lifeforms of this planet with much more compassion. Sadly, sadism and callousness appears to be encoded into our genes and modern, capitalistic, industrial society exacerbates the worst traits of humans.

 

[illykitty]

Telling that plants respond to stimuli and equate this to animals suffering, justify eating meat, somehow? That argument sounds very illogical. Plus it's assuming that all vegetarians and vegans claim that their diet is perfect. It is about compassion and minimising suffering, not perfection.

Now for the illogical part, eating meat not only kills animals, it kills more plants too since not only we kill them to feed ourselves but farm animals eat them too. Meat production also uses more land, more water and pollutes more. Even the UN agrees that eating meat puts huge stress on the planet's resources, especially at our current rate, coupled with an increasing global population.

(Links cause the images are huge.)
https://36.media.tumblr.com/62e9208960444562060d6fa46212f56d/tumblr_mnhoqbMuoR1qar0kbo1_1280.jpg
https://41.media.tumblr.com/7912e742a95fa86e19b75993a85f1a25/tumblr_mnhoqbMuoR1qar0kbo2_500.jpg

So I doubt this argument is meant to be serious, if so, it's not very well thought out. It seems to be an argument formulated to avoid the taboo subject of diet. To put it above criticism, basically.

On RF, we have countless threads with critique and debates about religions, politics, etc. Diet shouldn't be immune to a good hard look. At the very least, some good comes out of criticism and information, like increased awareness about animal rights, environmental damage and intensive factory farming practices plus more people making concious decision, whatever their conclusions are (whether going veg or not).

I don't feel I'm better than everyone for eating less meat, I just put more priority on that value, while someone else has another value they care more about. I actually feel like I fail at walking the walk but I keep trying.

 

[Yerda]

I don't care if an animal or plant has a soul or manitou, it is my place in this world to kill and eat, it is how I am design and I have the canines to prove it. I forbidden by the tenets of my beliefs to consider anything edible for unclean or forbidden since my deity has declared it all to be clean. In my beliefs if you eat meat, you do it in thankful to the All in all, if you don't eat meat then do it in thankfulness to the All in all. And don't judge another for eating meat or not eating meat.

Many animals display obvious fear and suffering when threatened. This suggests they choose not to be killed and eaten. Why does your obviously self-serving criteria overrule theirs?

Perhaps my God says it is fine to eat small children. Hey man, don't judge though.

 

[Brinne]

Regardless of plant or animal I always thank them for their sacrifice. The main thing I have a problem with is the mistreatment of animals and the unsafe/unsanitary/unnatural methods of a lot of large slaughterhouses nowadays.

 

[Valjean]

I wonder how many species were thanked and appreciated into extinction?
I wonder if "sacrifice" is an accurate description of death from predation?

 

[Straw Dog]

I wonder how many species were thanked and appreciated into extinction?
I wonder if "sacrifice" is an accurate description of death from predation?

Yes, this way of thinking is quite anthropocentric. Our gratitude means nothing to our prey.

 

[Vinayaka]

Plants and animals have had a long history on this planet, starting with the Oxygen and Carbon Dioxide exchanging. We need each other.

 

[Straw Dog]

Many vegetarians follow their diets principally for compassionate reasons, for health reasons, for environmental reasons, or for all these reasons. I don't believe most of them do it because they just want to claim a moral high ground. However, it would follow that they must consider more compassionate grounds to be a higher ground, so they must still indirectly endorse their vegetarianism as a moral high ground nonetheless.

 

[Agathion]

The idea that eating plants does not cause suffering is both stupid and illogical... period. First off, even if plants do not feel pain they still are living organisms and eating them is still causing them suffering, maybe not pain as we know it but all organisms can suffer as suffering is the main way an organism realizes it is being damaged. Pain itself is a defense mechanism which alerts an organism that it is being harmed and should take action to prevent further harm. This especially applies to injuries you may not be aware you have.

Say you end up getting a strangulated-hernia, you cant see it but you can feel it and by feeling it you know it is there, that it is causing harm, and that it should be taken care of. If you were not able to feel the pain from it you would be unaware it was there and not knowing your body was being damaged you would take no action to fix it. Over time the damage would become more and more significant but since you cant see it or feel it you have no idea it is there... until it gets so bad that visible signs show up at which point the damage is prob so significant that its too late to fix it. You would at that point prob die. Pain is an alarm system which alerts you to injuries or illnesses so you can take action to stop the harm and fix what damage there is.

Secondly, Claiming that eating certain organisms is cruel but others are not contradicts any position of being compassionate. ALL organisms are living creatures and harming them regardless of whether they be animal or vegetable is equally cruel from that standpoint. You cannot claim to be compassionate if you are murdering living organisms.

Finally, it is the natural order for organisms to eat other organisms. Its the way nature works and all organisms do it. Claiming it is wrong contradicts and contravenes the natural order. Animals eat plants and other animals. Get used to it cause that's how it has always been and always shall be. Nature is not all peace, beauty, grandeur, and equality. Nature has cruelty, horror, suffering, death, and plays favorites. Seriously this topic annoys me to know end.

 

[metis]

It does not have to be a zero-sum game. Einstein, for example, considered meat-eating to be the most single greatest threat to the planet largely because of the effect of methane gas, which is 20X more heat absorbent than C02, and the vast land usage just to feed the critters. So, any significant reduction of meat consumption can have some positive effects, not only on Planet earth, but also on our personal health.

BTW, I am not a vegetarian, but my meat consumption is down to about one to two meals per week, usually fish.

 

[Agathion]

Its not a zero sum game per say. If it were nature would have collapsed eons ago. There is a saying: Out of death, life. and: Out of destruction, creation. Everything that happens in nature ultimately benefits the system. Even when an animal is devoured its mass benefits the predator by providing fuel, the decomposition of its carcass provides for scavengers and returns nutrients to the earth, and its eventual excretion as dung from the predator that ate it provides for new and abundant plant growth and prosperity for the insects which eat the dung. It is all one big circular system which constantly self regulates, and self perpetuates.

 

[Nous]

The idea that eating plants does not cause suffering is both stupid and illogical... period. First off, even if plants do not feel pain they still are living organisms and eating them is still causing them suffering

Please provide the evidence that substantiates your claims that plants suffer pain or that plants "realize" that they've been damaged when harvested.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

It is about compassion and minimising suffering, not perfection.

Exactly.

 

[Agathion]

Lol no need for evidence... the premise is self evident. Biological organisms are aware of their surroundings and aware of their physical structures and any damage to them. They may not be intelligent and might not understand the stimulus exactly as we do but all organisms have that function. If they did not then they would not be biological organisms. Now some might argue that perhaps there is life out there which may not be based on biological systems but until we find such life-forms that remains just a theoretical possibility. Could there be a life form composed not of organic matter but say mineral like silicon... maybe, but at this point we don't know. If such a life-form did exist it would not feel pain, it would be unlike any life of which we know... completely alien.

 

[Agathion]

Which is an interesting topic we should start elsewhere.

 

[illykitty]

Secondly, Claiming that eating certain organisms is cruel but others are not contradicts any position of being compassionate. ALL organisms are living creatures and harming them regardless of whether they be animal or vegetable is equally cruel from that standpoint. You cannot claim to be compassionate if you are murdering living organisms.

Finally, it is the natural order for organisms to eat other organisms. Its the way nature works and all organisms do it. Claiming it is wrong contradicts and contravenes the natural order. Animals eat plants and other animals. Get used to it cause that's how it has always been and always shall be. Nature is not all peace, beauty, grandeur, and equality. Nature has cruelty, horror, suffering, death, and plays favorites. Seriously this topic annoys me to know end.

You might want to read my post, 7 posts above this one you made. I make several logical argument, supported by facts as to why eating plants result in less harm. I also have pointed out that perfection isn't the goal, that minimising suffering is. Even someone who's not vegetarian can make a good impact.

For example, my husband is not a vegetarian, but he makes an effort to reduce his consumption. It's now down to only a few times a week at most, which compared to before, was pretty much everyday, at almost all meals. I consider this to be a victory and greatly positive.

 

[Papoon]

There is a high moral ground to vegetarianism. And I say this despite eating meat. The sheer waste involved in meat production is OTT. 10 kilos of vegetable protein to produce 1 kilo of meat protein. Tens of thousands of litres of water. It is actually madness, and unsustainable madness as the population grows. It is why we will be eating insects as a staple globally shortly.
Edit - I see IllyKitty has already made this point. It is worth researching.

 

[Papoon]

Before someone asks why that is 'moral high ground' I will add that gross mismanagement of resources shows no concern for our descendants, let alone all the other creatures of the planet. The issue is complex, but basically the way we are living is irresponsibly ruining the potential for quality of life for our children, and children's children. That is immoral.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I guess we should never take antibiotics again...don't want to go hurting the feelings of all those happy little germ families.

 

[Papoon]

I guess we should never take antibiotics again...don't want to go hurting the feelings of all those happy little germ families.

Ironic. Taking antibiotics excessively, and adding them to stock feed, has resulted in antibiotic resistant bacteria which are set to decimate the human race. Just last week we went 'over the edge' - there is now a replicating gene in bacteria which is unstoppable. It emerged in pigs in China. At this stage we are out of ideas - and the stage is set for the emergence of global pandemics precisely because of how we raise meat.