Plants and Vegetarianism

[jonathan180iq]

Ironic. Taking antibiotics excessively, and adding them to stock feed, has resulted in antibiotic resistant bacteria which are set to decimate the human race. Just last week we went 'over the edge' - there is now a replicating gene in bacteria which is unstoppable. It emerged in pigs in China. At this stage we are out of ideas - and the stage is set for the emergence of global pandemics precisely because of how we raise meat.

Yeah, I think you took my post a little too seriously.

 

[metis]

Its not a zero sum game per say. If it were nature would have collapsed eons ago. There is a saying: Out of death, life. and: Out of destruction, creation. Everything that happens in nature ultimately benefits the system. Even when an animal is devoured its mass benefits the predator by providing fuel, the decomposition of its carcass provides for scavengers and returns nutrients to the earth, and its eventual excretion as dung from the predator that ate it provides for new and abundant plant growth and prosperity for the insects which eat the dung. It is all one big circular system which constantly self regulates, and self perpetuates.

It seems that you do not understand where I was coming from in my last post here. To put it in brief terms, today's situation is quite different in regards to what's at stake than in centuries past.

 

[Papoon]

Yeah, I think you took my post a little too seriously.

No, I saw the humor. I just took the opportunity to relay some very important news.

 

[Deepeco]

"Where's your moral high ground now, vegetarians?" xD

plants do not have a subjective experience of pain, because they lack brains. It is like a spontaneous reaction that you can do, even unconsciously. If what you posted is evidence that plants are sentient, then so are modern day computers and so is your immune system and your gut system, because those systems also have very complex responses (communication, self-recognition, perception,...).
You are like everyone else in favor of animal welfare laws (e.g. "you should not set an animal on fire for fun, you should not hit a dog,..."). But you are like everyone else not advocating plant welfare laws. That proves that you do not really believe that plants are sentient but you believe that those animals subject to welfare laws are.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

As an animist, there's not much of a difference between eating a plant or an animal to me, since they all have souls and awareness of their own.

Plants don't have pain receptors like animals though.

 

[MountainPine]

Theft implies ownership, so theft of whom? And if you reply with some sort of notion that an animal owns its own life, then you're simply playing fast and loose with the meaning of "own," which is next to ludicrous and begs rejection.

According to your own logic, you don't own your life either. Depriving an animal of it's consciousness, especially for temporary consumption, is evil, no matter how it's done. Would you care if I killed someone you loved as long as I killed them quickly and painlessly? A quick death is not as severe as a slow one, but it is still murder, not to mention wasteful. You are not just wasting the animal(s), but also the feed (wheat and soybeans) that was produced to feed it, and the water it took to clean the cuts of meat. It's bad for the environment too — excessive nitrates, water waste, excessive carbon emissions from the factories, and excessive decay polluting the land and rivers, etc. It just far more practical and efficient to grow crops than to butcher animals. Plants grow in far less time than it takes for animals to multiply for more meat.

 

[Skwim]

Would you care if I killed someone you loved as long as I killed them quickly and painlessly?

No I wouldn't.

A quick death is not as severe as a slow one, but it is still murder, not to mention wasteful.

I have no idea what you mean by a "severe" death. Murder is not simply killing someone. It's killing someone when it's against the law. As for wasteful, perhaps so, perhaps not.

You are not just wasting the animal(s), but also the feed (wheat and soybeans) that was produced to feed it, and the water it took to clean the cuts of meat.

While you may consider the investment in producing meat to be wasteful, I don't. There's always a trade off when we so something at the expense of something else, whether it's producing meat, computer monitors, or Bibles.


.

 

[MountainPine]

No I wouldn't.


I have no idea what you mean by a "severe" death. Murder is not simply killing someone. It's killing someone when it's against the law. As for wasteful, perhaps so, perhaps not.


While you may consider the investment in producing meat to be wasteful, I don't. There's always a trade off when we so something at the expense of something else, whether it's producing meat, computer monitors, or Bibles.

There is no industry on Earth that doesn't cause more damage to the environment than the meat and dairy industries. For example, the Aral Sea no longer exists because it was drained for farming purposes. There are plenty of studies you can Google which prove how much damage is being done to the planet because of animal farming, it is definitely not an equal trade off. More animals are dying than they are producing. How do you not see it as wasteful? Think about it. A cow that has been raised for 3-5 years is slaughtered for steaks and burgers—meals which last for 10 minutes of pleasure, then gone forever. Plants keep growing and spreading at a rapid rate. Animals do not.

You do know that there is recorded footage of animals shedding tears before they are killed, right? They value their lives as much as you do yours.

 

[Valjean]

MountainPine said: ↑
"Would you care if I killed someone you loved as long as I killed them quickly and painlessly?"

Skwim replied:
"No I wouldn't.'

So we're arguing morality with a psychopath...

swim said:
I have no idea what you mean by a "severe" death. Murder is not simply killing someone. It's killing someone when it's against the law. As for wasteful, perhaps so, perhaps not.

First, what does law have to do with anything? Law is man -made, capricious and mercurial. Appeal to law indicates a stage 4 moral orientation, at best (Kohlberg).

We're discussing moral principles and pragmatics here, not law.

Skwim said:
While you may consider the investment in producing meat to be wasteful, I don't. There's always a trade off when we so something at the expense of something else, whether it's producing meat, computer monitors, or Bibles..

As for waste: http://www.cowspiracy.com/facts/

 

[MountainPine]

So we're arguing morality with a psychopath...

Indeed, but not just him. Anyone who is defensive of their omnivorous diet is a psychopath and should not be taken seriously at all.

 

[Aquitaine]

Indeed, but not just him. Anyone who is defensive of their omnivorous diet is a psychopath and should not be taken seriously at all.

That's a little extreme don't you think?

 

[Valjean]

Agreed. The claim doesn't follow.

 

[MountainPine]

That's a little extreme don't you think?

Nope, why would it be? If someone defends their diet by making excuses after being given the awareness of the suffering of animals indicates a lack of conscience.

 

[Aquitaine]

Agreed. The claim doesn't follow.

I think such an extreme stance is also problematic for the vegetarian cause because it projects that "high horse" stereotype and helps alienate potential converts. People aren't going to join you if you're throwing rocks at them.

 

[Aquitaine]

Nope, why would it be? If someone defends their diet by making excuses after being given the awareness of the suffering of animals indicates a lack of conscience.

Although I can't talk for other meat eaters, personally I recognize the ethical and practical benefits of a vegetarian diet, but have yet to implement one. With me, the primary reason is mostly lack of willpower and motivation to change - as I was raised on an omnivorous diet - not schadenfreude.

I also cook for the people who live with me, who themselves have omnivorous diets.

I don't eat meat with some machiavellian grin on my face gloating about all the animals who were farmed and killed for my meal - I just eat it because to me it has always been food.

 

[MountainPine]

It isn't like I think I'm better than someone else who is not a vegan. What is going on in my mind is that the animals are being tortured to death, and I'm speaking for them. But people like Skwim don't seem to care. No mercy, no empathy, no heart.

 

[Valjean]

I think such an extreme stance is also problematic for the vegetarian cause because it projects that "high horse" stereotype and helps alienate potential converts. People aren't going to join you if you're throwing rocks at them.

Good point, and a perennial problem, weather it's abolition, woman's suffrage, or vegetarianism. Sometimes you just have to wait for society's Zeitgeist to catch up -- or for some catastrophic Klein event.
Today's extreme is tomorrow's mainstream

 

[Aquitaine]

It isn't like I think I'm better than someone else who is not a vegan. What is going on in my mind is that the animals are being tortured to death, and I'm speaking for them. But people like Skwim don't seem to care. No mercy, no empathy, no heart.

I would much prefer it if we gave the animals a decent life, along with a swift painless death (Nitrogen Asphyxiation perhaps). I also believe we should provide humane euthanasia to humans, but on a voluntary basis with certain regulations imposed.
We all live and die. Nature raises and kills us in the end, but so long as the animals have a decent standard of living - especially one better than in the wild - then I think that would be more morally acceptable to kill them for food.

Honestly, I'm just hoping that in my lifetime I will see affordable lab grown meat which would replace factory farmed meat.

However, when you say that people who are defensive about meat eating are to be dismissed, I feel you're doing more harm than good to your cause.

 

[Aquitaine]

Good point, and a perennial problem, weather it's abolition, woman's suffrage, or vegetarianism. Sometimes you just have to wait for society's Zeitgeist to catch up -- or for some catastrophic Klein event.
Today's extreme is tomorrow's mainstream

Honestly, I'm hoping affordable lab grown animal products will catch on and become mainstream in the future.

 

[allfoak]

There are always going to be people who eat "meat".
And there are always going to be people who have something to say about it.
It's what makes the world go round.

With any subject you will find the same issue.
Some say yes some say no.
It is the law of polarity, the law of opposites.