Playing the Atheist's advocate

[Unveiled Artist]

Many of us are far more educated then any theist.

By our extensive research, we see exactly how man creates deities.

Nicely put.

 

[Aupmanyav]

When I meet people who don't like me, I don't make it my life's goal to torment those people. I just ignore them and carry on my merry way.

I see, you are better than some of the Gods.

 

[Aupmanyav]

If you believe neither, you will be sent to Christian hell on Sundays and Muslim hell on Fridays, and the rest of the week you spend your time in the Catholic purgatory.

If you believe in neither, there is no danger of eternal hell. I do not think Judaism or any other religion in the world has the concept of eternal hell.

 

[RedDragon94]

Not true. We believe you believe you've had an experience significant enough to convince you. We have not. And obviously unless we suddenly develop the ability to crawl into your head and experience your experiences, we can't confirm them.

Right. I think that God has a special place in his heart for atheists though, their desire for truth and justice is very godly of them.

 

[RedDragon94]

I don't necessarily accept peoples ''experiences'', of anything; do you?

If a person experiences God in a certain way either through worship or more importantly life experience I believe it's irrefutable.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

How do we know God exists?

Or, If we do not know god exists, then why would care if exists?

If God cannot be proven, how do we know that the God we serve is the right one?

Or, If god can not be proven, then why would care that the one with a thousand gods those around serve is the right one?

What evidence is there for God? And if there were evidence wouldn't that be proof? Actually there is evidence of god. the fact that there has never ever ever ever ever been any evidenc whatsoever of go is absolute definitive evidence that god is 100% true!

Does the theory of evolution botch the idea that what we see in nature is proof of God's existence?

Excellent question. It takes quite a turn, but yes; the theory of evolution (and science in general) bother the idea of 'god seen in nature.' No intention of turing this thread around.

Are the holy books of any religions evidence of God's existence, why or why not?

[/quote]Eye eee eye eee eye eee eye eee eyes eee eye eye.

 

[Willamena]

How do we know God exists?

We don't... we just know god doesn't not exist. Not existing, like existing, is dependent upon our understanding the universe. God, being beyond any definition, neither exists nor does not exist.

If God cannot be proven, how do we know that the God we serve is the right one?

How many "thing exempt from all" do you need? I need only the one. Since there's only one, it's automatically the right one.

What evidence is there for God? And if there were evidence wouldn't that be proof?

Evidence of anything would be a type of proof of it, yes. Is there a proof for the thing you've not yet thought of? Similarly, is there a proof for the thing you know you've not yet thought of?

Does the theory of evolution botch the idea that what we see in nature is proof of God's existence?

No. The TOE is natural.

Are the holy books of any religions evidence of God's existence, why or why not?

Books are terrific evidence of the existence of books.

 

[RedDragon94]

Some experiences are inherently only meaningful on a personal basis, and in that sense can never be proof of the existence of something on a wider scope.

I don't know for sure if that is what you mean, though.

Right, they can only be proof to the individual. Like, the reason why I justify staying single is personal. When I look over my past and think about who I am it just makes sense.

I think it is all but completely self-evident that belief is not the origin of morality. Morality is a practical skill, one that arises out of the existence of both moral needs and sentience.

Do you think that a person's morality evolves over their lifespan?

I don't think so. Quite a lot of processes do in fact occur naturally with no evidence or even hint of any oversight.

Were I inclined to assume a creator (and I do think it is ultimately a matter of personal inclination), I would probably see the Normal Distribution as more of an evidence of a creator than I see existence itself, let alone biological evolution or the arising of life forms.

How can a process have such precise results, like the direct placement of the earth from the sun? As I think about it you are correct that there are processes that do not have oversight (like puberty) but there are some (such as homebrewing and other forms of manufacturing) that do. How do we know that we aren't products of something much more bigger than just chemical combinations?

Yes. Do you think electromagnetism shows evidence of design or of intent?

Following the big bang, intent. Everything has a cause, even evolution.

 

[RedDragon94]

Or, If we do not know god exists, then why would care if exists?Or, If god can not be proven, then why would care that the one with a thousand gods those around serve is the right one?Excellent question. It takes quite a turn, but yes; the theory of evolution (and science in general) bother the idea of 'god seen in nature.' No intention of turing this thread around.

Well the questions were aimed at theists anyway.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Well the questions were aimed at theists anyway.

Yes, I realize. But so were my responses! If you do not KNOW god exists, they why would you care? (FEAR?). If god cannot be proven why would you care that the one you serve serve is the right one (confirmation bias)? Sorry for providing the only rational answers to your questions when I know you were looking for irrational questions )))

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Honestly, my feelings on a lot of these subjects have started to all coalesce into the certainty that the answer "I don't know" is the only respectable one when dealing with belief-without-proof standpoints. I don't know if there is a God or that there are gods. I don't know whether or not there is any sort of "life after death". I don't know whether there exist rewards and/or punishments for the souls of men. I don't know whether men have souls. Does anyone? I mean really?

 

[Willamena]

Many of us are far more educated then any theist.

And many less.

By our extensive research, we see exactly how man creates deities.

And some of us see what we want to see.

 

[RedDragon94]

Yes, I realize. But so were my responses! If you do not KNOW god exists, they why would you care? (FEAR?). If god cannot be proven why would you care that the one you serve serve is the right one (confirmation bias)? Sorry for providing the only rational answers to your questions when I know you were looking for irrational questions )))

I was actually hoping that they would confirm my fears about things like the Bible being evidence of God because its the word of God. This kind of thinking would show me that I'm not completely immoral for thinking differently than my parents. It would lessen the burden of being different than every Bible thumper. I lean more toward Unitarian Universalists that's part of why I felt that it was okay for me to post this thread.

 

[RedDragon94]

Yes, I realize. But so were my responses! If you do not KNOW god exists, they why would you care? (FEAR?). If god cannot be proven why would you care that the one you serve serve is the right one (confirmation bias)? Sorry for providing the only rational answers to your questions when I know you were looking for irrational questions )))

Their circular reasoning would show me that I might actually be alright for thinking differently.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I was actually hoping that they would confirm my fears about things like the Bible being evidence of God because its the word of God. This kind of thinking would show me that I'm not completely immoral for thinking differently than my parents. It would lessen the burden of being different than every Bible thumper. I lean more toward Unitarian Universalists that's part of why I felt that it was okay for me to post this thread.

I can't say I don't have the same difficulty! I'm told either read the bible and believe it, or read the bible and interpret it any freaking way you want to, or don't bother with the bible and just believe you better believe whatever preacher you're preacher you give you money too.

No one tell me to think and ask.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Their circular reasoning would show me that I might actually be alright for thinking differently.

It is incredibly difficult to separate! My grandma is 93 and had a stroke only 18 monthes ago. Until she was 92 she still cooked for me, still made kolache and klobasneke, still cooked roast, pie, etc....If she knew I where an atheist it would kill her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet I am what I am. I visit her and cook her favorites that she cooked for me so long. I never discussed god etc., with her, only nod and agree; when I can understand her.

But how did I become who I am? I was given a bible when I was 13. I read it!!!! I read it!!! I asked and questioned over and over and over. And every time I asked I was given the same answer..which boiled down to...'well you can be a decent, god-fearing, law-abiding, respectible human being, and believe it...or you can be a demonic, POS, 'communist', 'atheist', 'socialist,' etc., and GO TO HELL!!!! At 13 yr of age I eventually accepted what 100 actual people told me and rejected reason...which clearly was not consist with biblical teaching. Once one has rejected reason.....When did Saouromnn reject reason for folly?

It is a long, long, long, journey back....

 

[RedDragon94]

I can't say I don't have the same difficulty! I'm told either read the bible and believe it, or read the bible and interpret it any freaking way you want to, or don't bother with the bible and just believe you better believe whatever preacher you're preacher you give you money too.

No one tell me to think and ask.

To me it's like there aren't a whole lot of good arguments for believing the Bible is the innerant Word of God. It's like, "The Bible is true because it says it's true and God doesn't lie" is the argument I'm most aware of. The "phenomenal language" that at least one inerrantist (Daniel Akin, SEBTS) claims to advocate for doesn't really help confirm that in my opinion. What phenomenal language basically is, is an incorrect observation of the way nature works. Sounds like God has gotten it wrong before, hate to say it.

 

[RedDragon94]

It is incredibly difficult to separate! My grandma is 93 and had a stroke only 18 monthes ago. Until she was 92 she still cooked for me, still made kolache and klobasneke, still cooked roast, pie, etc....If she knew I where an atheist it would kill her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yet I am what I am. I visit her and cook her favorites that she cooked for me so long. I never discussed god etc., with her, only nod and agree; when I can understand her.

But how did I become who I am? I was given a bible when I was 13. I read it!!!! I read it!!! I asked and questioned over and over and over. And every time I asked I was given the same answer..which boiled down to...'well you can be a decent, god-fearing, law-abiding, respectible human being, and believe it...or you can be a demonic, POS, 'communist', 'atheist', 'socialist,' etc., and GO TO HELL!!!! At 13 yr of age I eventually accepted what 100 actual people told me and rejected reason...which clearly was not consist with biblical teaching. Once one has rejected reason.....When did Saouromnn reject reason for folly?

It is a long, long, long, journey back....

So you think I should just keep my beliefs to myself and not tell my family?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

To me it's like there aren't a whole lot of good arguments for believing the Bible is the innerant Word of God. It's like, "The Bible is true because it says it's true and God doesn't lie" is the argument I'm most aware of. The "phenomenal language" that at least one inerrantist (Daniel Akin, SEBTS) claims to advocate for doesn't really help confirm that in my opinion. What phenomenal language basically is, is an incorrect observation of the way nature works. Sounds like God has gotten it wrong before, hate to say it.

Well, for me, after many years of study (I have an M.S. in evolution and ecology as well as an M.A. in theology) it came down to standards of knowledge. How do you know a piece of wood is 9" instead of 12"? How do you know a thing is soft rather than hard? How do you know something is true rather than false?

Most importantly; do you have one standard or multiple standards? Do you KNOW because you see, hear, feel, fast, or smell....Or do you know because you are told? Are you satisfied with having TWO standards of knowledge? Or do you require all propositions to stand up to the one? If the proposition doesn't stand up to the one, do you delegate it to unknown? Or do you delegate it to authority.

I don't know! Therefor I better believe?/????

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you think that a person's morality evolves over their lifespan?

"To evolve" is not the word I would use. Morality is IMO very much an intellectual skill. It will be directly affected by intellectual development, as well as by intellectual impairment. That is one of the reasons why I see intoxication as inherently immoral.

How can a process have such precise results, like the direct placement of the earth from the sun?

This may not have been a very good example of your point. Earth's orbit around the sun is hardly particularly precise, and to the extent that it is, it is because it is actually the result of competing forces meeting a balance.

As I think about it you are correct that there are processes that do not have oversight (like puberty) but there are some (such as homebrewing and other forms of manufacturing) that do. How do we know that we aren't products of something much more bigger than just chemical combinations?

We can't know that, but the available evidence certainly does not suggest that we are. Not IMO, at the very least.

Following the big bang, intent. Everything has a cause, even evolution.

I just don't know why you would say that. Neither the big bang nor biological evolution seem even roughly "meant to be".