Playing the Atheist's advocate

[Rick O'Shez]

I think, even Big-Bang had a cause though we cannot at present look beyond it. Nothing without a cause.

Cause and effect is a property of space-time, which didn't exist prior to the big bang. So talking about cause and effect prior to the big bang is purely speculative.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Let me rephrase then, to the best of our knowledge, most of us believe God exists.

At one time most people believed the earth was flat and at the centre of the universe.

 

[shawn001]

I am just not following you. Is that supposed to challenge what I said?

Of course, intoxication has ancient history. Does that imply or suggest that it is not immoral? I'm not seeing it.

Nor do I have any idea of what intoxication for moral reasons would even be, much less how it could be a real thing.

Luis no challenge and no worries.

3 is the dealbreaker. That is what "intoxication" means, isn't it?

People use drugs IN there religions. For example peyote. So they see it as moral in their religion.

 

[LuisDantas]

Luis no challenge and no worries.



People use drugs IN there religions. For example peyote. So they see it as moral in their religion.

I don't think I will ever understand how come.

 

[shawn001]

Just fyi

Peyote and the Native American Church

"The Native American Church teaches a combination of Christianity and traditional Native American beliefs."


Origin:

Many Native American tribes traditionally made use of a chemical known as peyote in their religious rituals.

Basic Beliefs:

Followers of the Native American Church are monotheists, believing in a supreme being commonly addressed as the Great Spirit. The Great Spirit often works through a variety of lesser spirits. Jesus plays a prominent role in their beliefs, often being equated with the spirit of the peyote plant.

Care of family and tribe and avoidance of alcohol are central values of the Native American Church.

Practices:

Chewing peyote buds and drinking peyote tea are central practices of the Native American Church. These ceremonies commonly last all night, often starting Saturday night and ending Sunday morning. Singing, drumming, dancing, scripture reading, prayer, and the sharing of spiritual ideas are all commonly included as well.


Reasons for Peyote:

Outsiders commonly think of peyote as simply being a means of getting high, but those who use it for religious purposes see it as being sacramental. The plant is understood to be sacred, and ingestion of it brings the user into a closer understanding of the spiritual world.

Larger doses – and, thus, more intense hallucinations – may be used to accomplish specific goals, allowing the user to more fully interact with the spiritual world. Smaller doses, often delivered in a drink, are used in a manner similar to that of smoking ganja by Rastas: To open the mind and free it to better comprehend things beyond that of the mundane world

Peyote and the Native American Church

 

[Desert Snake]

If a person experiences God in a certain way either through worship or more importantly life experience I believe it's irrefutable.

I disagree. If you mean, to them, personally, then great. However, that does not mean it's all fact; I am actually pretty skeptical of various 'religious experiences' that I read about. Heck, some people might even be lying.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Cause and effect is a property of space-time, which didn't exist prior to the big bang. So talking about cause and effect prior to the big bang is purely speculative.

If Big Bang is speculative, then to say that space-time did not exist before it also is speculative. Perhaps it existed (Background radiation). Actually, we need to wait till the puzzle is solved. These things being so different, to jump at conclusions will only get us untruth. But people want all answers in the way they can understand it whether they have studied Physics or not right now. Perhaps it is going to take a few Centuries.

 

[shawn001]

If Big Bang is speculative, then to say that space-time did not exist before it also is speculative. Perhaps it existed (Background radiation). Actually, we need to wait till the puzzle is solved. These things being so different, to jump at conclusions will only get us untruth. But people want all answers in the way they can understand it whether they have studied Physics or not right now. Perhaps it is going to take a few Centuries.

The big bang isn't speculative though. Nor does the Big Theory attempt to explain how it started, much like abiogenesis and evolution.

Talking about prior to the big bang is speculative at this time.

 

[Aupmanyav]

People use drugs IN their religions. For example peyote. So they see it as moral in their religion.

Aryans used Soma, that was an essential item in their rituals (Yajnas). One cannot entice Gods to come without Soma being ready. Indigenous people in India used marijuana. That made for many colorful stories. See my post at # 65.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The big bang isn't speculative though.

Well, generally yes. But problems exist: Big Bang - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Rick O'Shez]

But people want all answers in the way they can understand it whether they have studied Physics or not right now. Perhaps it is going to take a few Centuries.

People sometimes just want comforting answers like "God did it".

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

How do we know God exists?

If God cannot be proven, how do we know that the God we serve is the right one?

What evidence is there for God? And if there were evidence wouldn't that be proof?

Does the theory of evolution botch the idea that what we see in nature is proof of God's existence?

Are the holy books of any religions evidence of God's existence, why or why not?

Evidence in religion works like: the Rocky Mountains look majestic and awesome, it is divine, therefore God exists.

So with religion you always have one opinion relating to another opinion, the opinion on the beauty of the Rocky Mountains, relating to the opinion that God exists.

Evidence in science works like: the light reflecting of the moon coming into the camera produces a picture of the moon.

With science you always have evidence of something forcing to a model of what is evidenced, in this case the moon, and a picture of the moon. The picture of the moon may be regarded as facts about what the moon looks like. So in science you are basically only concerned with accurate copying.

You cannot copy God, or love, or hate. You can in stead express what love is, using your free will to paint a picture, but you cannot use a camera to copy what love is to a picture.

 

[Shad]

God is not an emotion but supposedly an entity thus evidence rather than subjective views can be used for God, ie your comparison is fallacious. Considering you are a Muslim the Quran is evidence of God directly. You contradict your religion or do not know it beyond common memes.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Or he is a Sufi.

Bulla! ki jaana main kaun
Bulla! I know not who I am
Na main momin vich maseetaan
I am not a believer in the mosque
Na main vich kufar diyan reetaan
Nor am I in rituals of the infidel
Na main paakaan vich paleetaan
Nor am I the pure amongst the impure.
Bulla! ki jaana main kaun
Bulla! I know not who I am

Syed Abdullah Shah Qadri, Bulle Shah (1680–1757).

 

[Shad]

Or he is a Sufi.

Bulla! ki jaana main kaun
Bulla! I know not who I am
Na main momin vich maseetaan
Nor am I a believer in the mosque
Na main vich kufar diyan reetaan
Nor am I in rituals of the infidel
Na mai paakaan vich paleetaan
Nor am I the pure amongst the impure.
Bulla! ki jaana main kaun
Bulla! I know not who I am

Syed Abdullah Shah Qadri, Bulle Shah (1680–1757).

Sufism still follows the Quran as the word of God, ie a fact claim. The difference is interpretation not the stance of what the Quran is.

 

[Aupmanyav]

They do, but not in the exact way as Salafis would want.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

God is not an emotion but supposedly an entity thus evidence rather than subjective views can be used for God, ie your comparison is fallacious. Considering you are a Muslim the Quran is evidence of God directly. You contradict your religion or do not know it beyond common memes.

....you don't even consider the existence of emotions as a matter of opinion, you are a social darwinist. You consider that you can copy emotions using an mri device to make a picture of them, that you can know as fact what somebody feels.

In Islam the existence of God is considered a matter of faith. God belongs in the same category as emotions, which is the category of the spiritual domain. And what is in the spiritual domain 1 chooses, and 2 the existence of it is a matter of opinion.

Love is motivation of a decision, it is what makes a decision turn out the way it does, and therefore the existence of love is a matter of opinion. God also chooses, and therefore the existence of God is a matter of opinion.

 

[Shad]

....you don't even consider the existence of emotions as a matter of opinion, you are a social darwinist. You consider that you can copy emotions using an mri device to make a picture of them, that you can know as fact what somebody feels.

In Islam the existence of God is considered a matter of faith. God belongs in the same category as emotions, which is the category of the spiritual domain. And what is in the spiritual domain 1 chooses, and 2 the existence of it is a matter of opinion.

Love is motivation of a decision, it is what makes a decision turn out the way it does, and therefore the existence of love is a matter of opinion. God also chooses, and therefore the existence of God is a matter of opinion.

Of course as people with rage do not form the opinion to let rage control them. Rage overrides their ability to reason thus is not an opinion. It is why there are anger management forms of therapy. It comes before one can make an opinion, it's a basic reaction not a thought process.

No it is considered a matter of fact. The Quran is God's word, fact claim. Maybe read your Quran more since it makes this positive claim and put forward challenges to prove otherwise. It proscribes rewards for those that follow Islam and those that do not. If it was only an opinion then punishment for not agreeing with an opinion is unjust. God is not an emotion, God is an entity, the greatest entity possible. If the spiritual domain is only an opinion then you can not derive opinions from another opinion, circular reasoning.

Love can cause someone to act without a decision, hence crimes of passion, try again.

 

[Shad]

They do, but not in the exact way as Salafis would want.

I agree. Hence why I put forward interpretation of the texts verses are different, practical application is different. However the text is still taken as the literal words of God delivered by a literal Gabriel from a literal God.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Of course as people with rage do not form the opinion to let rage control them. Rage overrides their ability to reason thus is not an opinion. It is why there are anger management forms of therapy. It comes before one can make an opinion, it's a basic reaction not a thought process.

No it is considered a matter of fact. The Quran is God's word, fact claim. Maybe read your Quran more since it makes this positive claim and put forward challenges to prove otherwise. It proscribes rewards for those that follow Islam and those that do not. If it was only an opinion then punishment for not agreeing with an opinion is unjust. God is not an emotion, God is an entity, the greatest entity possible. If the spiritual domain is only an opinion then you can not derive opinions from another opinion, circular reasoning.

Love can cause someone to act without a decision, hence crimes of passion, try again.

It has already been demonstrated beyond doubt that you are just another social darwinist.