Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

[Theweirdtophat]

You can be tolerant of something without approving it. Tolerance means you put up with it, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it.

 

[Kirran]

You can be tolerant of something without approving it. Tolerance means you put up with it, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it.

No arguments there.

If this is in reference to my comment on SG's views on homosexuality, I do tolerate those views. As in, I'm not spending all my conversations with him haranguing him about it. But I also openly disagree.

 

[columbus]

You'll find contradictions in the Quran like you would in the Torah or New Testmanet. You'll find good things in those books as well as bad things that contradict the message. I'm saying the Quran isn't the only book that's like that, although some like to think that. Then again, one has to check out history. Who was Muhammad talking about? All people, or the enemies they were fighting against? Not to mention it was written by multiple people like with the Torah and New Testament.

Why not start a thread in the Islamic DIR asking about Muslims who agree that the Quraan was written by multiple people and contains many errors like all the other Scriptures?
Then add a link to the Raif Badawi issue most Muslims refuse to discuss.
You probably won't get death threats here on RF. But only because RF is more moral than Islamic culture.
Tom

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Why not start a thread in the Islamic DIR asking about Muslims who agree that the Quraan was written by multiple people and contains many errors like all the other Scriptures?
Then add a link to the Raif Badawi issue most Muslims refuse to discuss.
You probably won't get death threats here on RF. But only because RF is more moral than Islamic culture.
Tom

I've known some that admitted it was written by multiple people and wasn't actually written by Muhammad as they claimed he was illiterate and couldn't read or write. What is this issue that most of them refuse to discuss. I don't expect any threats but I have to stress that not all Islamic culture is the same. Many assume they are one and the same and cultures differ.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Well, fair enough. Seeing as you're against homosexuality, I'm not sure that's always the best way to go about it with some people :/

Glad you said "homosexuality" and not "homosexuals". Now I have some friends of them.
Disapproval like mine of an act is not a bad thing. It is not like I'm going all around demonizing homosexuals or that I have a thing against them in person.
You're against marriage, that does not mean it affects my respect to you just because I'm in favor of marriage.

 

[columbus]

I've known some that admitted it was written by multiple people and wasn't actually written by Muhammad as they claimed he was illiterate and couldn't read or write.

How many is "some"?
Would they be considered Muslims by 90% of self-described Muslims? SG is among the most liberal and educated Muslims I know. But I doubt he would give you the answer you want, because he lives in a Muslim country that executes people for saying such things publicly.
In traditional Muslim fashion, maybe lashed to death and maybe the more merciful beheading. They have not decided yet in Raif Badawi's case.
Tom

 

[raph]

How many is "some"?

Every muslim knows, that the Quran was not written by Muhammad. He recited it, people learned it or wrote it down. Later some people wrote down the final Quran, consisting of verses Muhammad has recited.

 

[columbus]

Every muslim knows, that the Quran was not written by Muhammad.

What he said is that the Quraan was written by multiple people. I believe that qualifies as apostasy, if coming from an exMuslim. Is that incorrect?
Do you qualify as a Muslim if you believe that the Quraan was written by a bunch of different people and contains many errors?
Tom

 

[Theweirdtophat]

What he said is that the Quraan was written by multiple people. I believe that qualifies as apostasy, if coming from an exMuslim. Is that incorrect?
Do you qualify as a Muslim if you believe that the Quraan was written by a bunch of different people and contains many errors?
Tom

I wasn't sure if other branches believed in the same thing but generally yeah, it's known that Muhammad didn't write it. He couldn't have if he truly was illiterate. How does it qualify as apostasy? The Quran was written by multiple people just like the Torah and New Testament. All 3 had contradictions. Although I wonder if these were just contradictions when we read them or we misinterpreted what they meant.

 

[raph]

What he said is that the Quraan was written by multiple people. I believe that qualifies as apostasy, if coming from an exMuslim. Is that incorrect?
Do you qualify as a Muslim if you believe that the Quraan was written by a bunch of different people and contains many errors?
Tom

Depends on how you define written.

Muhammad got the Quran from God. Muhammad taught his people the Quran. His people wrote down the Quran, sometime with errors. But the versions with errors in them got destroyed. We have the Quran today, that Muhammad taught his people, 100% God's word.

If you don't believe the last sentence, it is apostacy. I don't know, if muslims need to believe the whole story.

 

[LuisDantas]

Far as I know, it is just not possible to be a Muslim in good standing while also openly harboring doubts about whether the whole of the Quran (as it now exists, and supposedly as he did exist in the last few 1000 years or so) is of divine authorship, perfect and immutable.

I am willing to hear otherwise, but I don't think I will.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I think deep down there's very few people that believe in their religion 100% Although some won't admit it and some will but a lot of times there will be a few doubts here and there.

 

[sun rise]

Far as I know, it is just not possible to be a Muslim in good standing while also openly harboring doubts about whether the whole of the Quran (as it now exists, and supposedly as he did exist in the last few 1000 years or so) is of divine authorship, perfect and immutable.

I am willing to hear otherwise, but I don't think I will.

In good standing with whom? There are not supposed to be any people between the Muslim and Allah - no priests and no hierarchy. Of course there are Mullahs and Ayatollahs, but to me they are human inventions analogous to priests.

That said, the qualifications to be a Muslim are those who believe in and declare the Shahada - a statement of faith.

There are of course Christians who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible.

And there are critical questions even if you believe that the Quran is perfect. Quranic Arabic is not modern Arabic. Translations of some suras are all over the place. Reconciling apparently contradictory passages are done by human beings and might not be what God intended. The place of Hadith in Islam is disputed between groups that accept some as "strong" and others as "weak" and at least one group that asserts Hadith is to be ignored and only the Quran used. This is of course not accepted by many Muslims, but read Appendix 37 of the Authorized English translation of Quran by Rashad Khalifa, Ph.D. | Submission.org - Your best source for Submission (Islam) to see how at least one group interprets the Quran differently.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

What I thought was there were some people that had some doubts or disagreements with the original. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen different branches of Islam or Christianity or Judaism or pretty much any faith. So there will always be some doubts outside of the hardcore fundamentalists.

 

[YmirGF]

What I thought was there were some people that had some doubts or disagreements with the original. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen different branches of Islam or Christianity or Judaism or pretty much any faith. So there will always be some doubts outside of the hardcore fundamentalists.

Your assertion only has merit when it is watered down so much that it becomes meaningless.

 

[Kirran]

Glad you said "homosexuality" and not "homosexuals". Now I have some friends of them.
Disapproval like mine of an act is not a bad thing. It is not like I'm going all around demonizing homosexuals or that I have a thing against them in person.
You're against marriage, that does not mean it affects my respect to you just because I'm in favor of marriage.

No, I get that you're not going round demonising. I guess it's like I disagree with you for being against homosexuality, but I don't have anything against you personally, just that viewpoint.

I'm not against marriage, actually.

 

[Smart_Guy]

No, I get that you're not going round demonising. I guess it's like I disagree with you for being against homosexuality, but I don't have anything against you personally, just that viewpoint.

I'm not against marriage, actually.

Okay

I thought you said you don't wanna get married because of your beliefs? Or was it you're against sex and you don't wanna have it and be celibate because of your beliefs? I don't remember exactly... anyways, disregards that

 

[sun rise]

What I thought was there were some people that had some doubts or disagreements with the original. Otherwise we wouldn't have seen different branches of Islam or Christianity or Judaism or pretty much any faith. So there will always be some doubts outside of the hardcore fundamentalists.

The real split in Islam was not about interpretation but in succession. The Shi'a were called the Party of Ali because they believed Ali was the true successor. The Sunnis believe that Abu Bakr was the true successor. This led to war. It's more complicated than that, of course, but that's the very quick summary. To me it's important to understand the historical roots of the Sunni Shi'a split to understand what is going on in today's middle east.

 

[Bunyip]

I've made threads like this but I thought I'd shed some light. There's bad Muslims, like bad Buddhists, Christians, Pagans ect. and you're going to find good and bad in almost every group. People say that Muslims don't condemn terrorism but that's not true.

Norway's Muslims Form Protective Human Ring Around Oslo's Synagogue

There are some that not only condemn it openly and also fight against it. The United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Nigeria, Chad, ect, all Muslims majority countries have been actively fighting against Boko Haram and ISIS, two Islamic terrorist groups. If that's not enough proof that they condemn it, I don't know what is. Most Muslims don't do terrorist activities. Most people in GENERAL don't do this. It is strange because some people will say "Muslims don't condemn Islamic terrorism!" so loud, they can't hear the Muslims that ARE condemning it.

People will try to justify hating it due to the Quran because there's some bad stuff in it. Yeah, like there isn't messed up stuff in the Torah, New Testament? Even some Hindu and Dharmic scriptures have messed up stuff in it. Those books have both good and bad stuff in it. They will say that Muslims should be punished for what their ancestors did, but that's not good either. You don't punish people for what their ancestors did.

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]

Apostasy is a topic that can get confusing, especially since in Islam it's not merely the change of ones religion. In the Qur'an for example, it is stated over and over again that there is no compulsion in religion. You simply are not allowed to make someone believe against their will. (I gave one example above, there are others I can share if anyone is interested)

The topic of rejecting religion after being a believer is also mentioned in the Qur'an, but not once is a worldly punishment prescribed for it. For example one verse states:

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

As you can see it talks about disbelieving after believing over and over again but it never talks about punishing those people in this life. Actually, if people were killed for merely leaving the religion, how can they believe and disbelieve then believe and disbelieve again? Wouldn't they be already dead?

The confusion actually comes from a number of saying by Muhammad about people committing ridda and that they are to be executed. Thing is these sayings were about people who didn't just leave the religion, but they also joined the other side which was fighting Muslims at the time. (In early Islamic history Muslims were persecuted against by the Arab Pagans) In some of these sayings it becomes more clear that it's not just someone who leaves the religion, but someone who acts against the nation. In short, it's someone committing treason in terms we use today.

So as you can say, if you combine the fact that the Qur'an itself speaks against compulsion in matters of religion, with knowing a bit of history behind these sayings it becomes clear that there is no execution for the mere leaving of Islam.

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]"

Pay the poor-due. 2:43, 110, 277
Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
If you believe it, prove it. (A good rule, but does it apply to Muslims, too?) 2:111
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
Do not fight wars of aggression. (Does this apply only during Ramadan?) 2:190
"Do good." 2:195
Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
Help orphans. 2:220
"Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
"If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease." 2:280
Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 3:66
Do not be guilty of usury, doubling and quadrpling the sum lent. 3:130
I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. 3:195
Help orphans and don't steal from them. 4:2, 4:10
Men and women proceed from one another. 4:25
"Kill not one another." 4:29
Be kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors, and travelers. 4:36
Whoever participates in a good cause, will be rewarded. Whoever participates in an evil cause, will bear the consequences thereof. (It's not true, but it's a nice thought.) 4:85
If someone says Hi to you say Hi (or Howdy) back to them. 4:86
It is good to help the poor and make peace. 4:114
Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 4:135
Don't lend money at unfairly high rates of interest. 4:161
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion."
Other translations render this "O people of the Book, do not be fanatical in your faith." (Amen to that!) 4:171
Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 5:8
Whoever kills a human being, it is as if he had killed all mankind. Whoever saves the life of one, it is as if he had saved the life of all.
(But see the next verse which says that the enemies of Allah and Muhammad will be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off, or expelled. And after they die they will face "an awful doom.") 5:32
Pay the poor-due. 5:55
Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89
Do good to parents, don't kill your children or other living things unnecessarily. 6:151
Don't steal from orphans. Don't cheat or lie. 6:152
Pay the poor-due. 7:156
Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61
Men and women are protecting friends of one another. They enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and pay the poor-due. 9:71
"We see thee [Noah] but a mortal like us, and we see not that any follow thee save the most abject among us, without reflection. We behold in you no merit above us - nay, we deem you liars." 11:27
"Do not evil in the earth."
Treat people fairly, respect their possessions, and avoid evil. 11:85
Be kind to your relatives. 16:90
Be kind to your parents. Treat them with respect in their old age. 17:23
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarer. Don't selfishly squander your wealth. 17:26
Don't kill your children to avoid falling into poverty. 17:31
Don't steal from orphans. 17:34
Don't follow what you don't know. 17:36
"Speak that which is kindlier." 17:53
"Increase me in knowledge." 20:114
Feed the poor and unfortunate. 22:28
Don't lie. 22:30
Be kind to others, forbid injustice, and pay the poor-due. 22:41
Pay the poor-due. 22:78
Pay the poor-due. 23:4
Repel evil with that which is better. 23:96
Pay the poor-due. 24:37, 24:56
"And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom."
Allah encourages you to set your slaves free if they are good enough. And don't pimp out your slave-girls (concubines). 24:33
Repel evil with good. 28:54
Be kind to your parents. 29:8
Men and women should help each other with love an mercy. 30:21
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarers. 30:38
Pay the poor-due. 31:4
"Be modest in thy bearing and subdue thy voice." 31:19
"Speak words straight to the point."
Say what you mean; mean what you say. 33:70
Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 41:34
Be loving and kind to your relatives. 42:23
It is wrong to oppress people. 42:42
Live peacefully with disbelievers. 43:88-89
Be kind to your parents. 46:15
Don't defame, insult, spy on, or backbite one another.. 49:11-12
Give of your wealth to help the poor. 51:19
"A guess can never take the place of the truth." 53:28
Pay the poor-due. 58:13
Pay the poor-due. 73:20
Don't defraud. 83:1-3
Free a slave, feed the hungry, and exhort one another to pity. 90:13-17
Don't oppress orphans or drive away beggars. 93:9-10
Pay the poor-due. That is true religion. 98:5
Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes. 109:1, 6

A lot of had work in that post. Well done.

 

[Shad]

The context of the Quran is, that it can't be contradictionary. We have peaceful verses and war verses, that can't contradict each other. The solution is, that war verses apply in situations, when enemies make war against you. And peaceful verses apply to situations, when your enemies want peace. How did you see the context of 9:29 to be "conquer every nation and force them to become muslim", when many verses contradict this view?

Defending your position would be showing me a verse or a sura, that clearly tells the muslims to fight peaceful unbelievers. But there is no such verse. Muslims can't fight peaceful unbelievers, the peace verses are very clear. And there is no war verse, that justifies fighting peaceful unbelievers.

These verses are not contradictory really as being kind after a war is possible. Being kinda before a war is possible. A contradiction would be fight X, do not fight X. Come back when you figure out what a contradiction is. The verse is about putting people under an Islamic system, nothing more than that.

The verse is question puts no parameters for peaceful or violent non-believers, it encompasses the group as a whole.