Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

[Theweirdtophat]

That is certainly possible that someone is trying to make the religion look bad, but don't forget that the radical groups themselves are posting coverage of atrocities committed by them on social media. That other groups do it as well does not excuse the radicals.

Another example are the cartel in Mexico and south America, the question must in all of these situations is what are the goverments and the people in those areas doing to stop these regimes and what can they do. I think Islamic nations face a peculiar pressure though because these acts are being tied to religion not only by the media but in by the groups. ISIS is communicating there message to the world under the guise of Islam. So what beyond denouncing such messages is the rest of the Islamic world capable of doing to prevent it? Can with the support of religious leaders people deny guest rights to groups like ISIS? Are there legal channels to remove children and other innocents from parents so less children die when governments apprehend or engage in combat with these groups? Can Islamic governments engage in combat with these groups? Are there any restraints to the arrest or killing of these individuals, religious or otherwise? And do you know what the government and communities are doing beyond just vocalizing their disagreement?

Some do put themselves but there I times where I think it's set up to make them look bad. Or there are times where something could be prevented but they let it pass. What bothers me is that even if there are good Muslims people will say that they are just pretending to be good just to earn your trust and that every Muslim secretly wants to take over the world and that it's encouraged in their religion to lie to gain people's trust. The whole lying thing was a Shia term.

I forgot the what it was called but it was used to hide from persecution. For example. if a Christian majority nation was oppressive and asked someone if they were a Muslim, Jew, ect. the Muslim would lie and say they were Christian to avoid being persecuted but of course would practice their religion in secret. Islamic governments are already fighting against the terrorist groups like Chad, Nigeria, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, ect.

 

[Curious George]

Some do put themselves but there I times where I think it's set up to make them look bad. Or there are times where something could be prevented but they let it pass. What bothers me is that even if there are good Muslims people will say that they are just pretending to be good just to earn your trust and that every Muslim secretly wants to take over the world and that it's encouraged in their religion to lie to gain people's trust. The whole lying thing was a Shia term.

I forgot the what it was called but it was used to hide from persecution. For example. if a Christian majority nation was oppressive and asked someone if they were a Muslim, Jew, ect. the Muslim would lie and say they were Christian to avoid being persecuted but of course would practice their religion in secret. Islamic governments are already fighting against the terrorist groups like Chad, Nigeria, United Arab Emirates, Jordan, ect.

I understand that governments face opposition on many fronts, but governments should invite other nations to help if they cannot handle all of the groups. Perhaps the u.n. should undertake more efforts.

I don't know that there are easy answers to any of it. But something has got to give. Perhaps all it takes is individual citizens banding together to prevent terrorist actions where the governments cannot?

 

[Smart_Guy]

You know, for some reason most I see of reaction from people when they hear the word "religion" is that it is about believing, worshiping, conversion, telling people what to do, punishment, provocation, warnings...

To me Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life.

To me Islam also teaches me to never raise my voice at my parents and the elderly, to eat only with my right hand and whats ahead and on front of me, to wash my private parts with water when I'm done, to wash those places and handle unclean stuff only with the left hand, to shake hands only with the right hand, to respond to greets with the same or a better greet (recommended), to never ever hit on the face, never resort to profanity, defines being a real man in holding one's anger not in brute force, to smile at people, to resort to what's forbidden like eating pork or drink alcohol if I have no other choice... and so many other stuff that I can tell you with authority that Islam does make me a better person. All of those and more in one package.

Now I know that the above are there every where else not just in Islam, but imagine that they are within a religious beliefs. That would mean that they will be taken seriously and considerably as long as one is a Muslim while if it is not in religion and within a belief system, it would be highly expected that it would be neglected or taken lightly. It would be stuff that may or may not be taught in schools or by parents. It is known how Muslims are devoted to Islam that they don't even like passive aggressive against their beliefs and figures, which makes them hold to the above good qualities (as I believe they are) and teach them to their children in both home and school. That would also spread them in communities with Muslim majorities, which is exactly how it is in my community.

Sorry for my ranting guys. Now where's my orange juice?

EDIT:
What I just said is debatable I know, but I thought maybe you wanted to hear it directly from a Muslim native of Makkah that lived and was educated in the home of Islam all his life, by his parents and Muslim schools.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Really, all religions can be looked as a way of life. I do that with mine as well. Now of course you don't need religion to be a good person. You can believe whatever you want or disbelieve whatever you want as long as you have good morals but some might feel comfortable with the philosophy of Druidism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism ect. Because really all religions are philosophies, but spiritual philosophies and a way of life. If they feel comfortable doing what they do and if they don't harm anyone, how does it hurt us or anyone? I do disagree with other religions but I always had a different perspective that while I agree with Druidism the most, I think almost every religion has some truth, i.e. Druidism, Christianity, Tengrism, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism, Jainism ect.

*gives Smart Guy orange juice*

 

[Smart_Guy]

Cheers... and that's the way I wish all people take in religion. It is not a me vs you thing. Islam says that the favor (as in better doing good for people) of the scientist over the favor of the worshiper is like the favor of the moon over the rest of the planets, and the moon has a special significance in Islam (yes, the Quran mentions planets).

My best regards to the moderates in all and any religion

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I understand that governments face opposition on many fronts, but governments should invite other nations to help if they cannot handle all of the groups. Perhaps the u.n. should undertake more efforts.

I don't know that there are easy answers to any of it. But something has got to give. Perhaps all it takes is individual citizens banding together to prevent terrorist actions where the governments cannot?

The UN should do more but I wouldn't hold my breath. In fact, you'd think that since almost every country in the world is part of the U.N. logically we would all be allies. Sometimes as you say it comes down to individual citizens to make the change. Sometimes the citizens must change themselves in order the change to take place. You can have the greatest and fairest set of laws on Earth but if you're country consists of mostly lazy, crime ridden greedy immoral people, it won't really do any good. People will need to learn that not all Muslims are terrorists or not all Wiccans don't use magic for evil purposes. People will have to realize this in order the change to take place and that the radicals are the ones to blame, the religious adherents themselves.

 

[Maponos]

Do you believe that your experiences with Islam is the be all end all of Islam?

No but it's confirmed by news and other people's stories.

 

[McBell]

No but it's confirmed by news and other people's stories.

Do you believe that the news is the be all end all of Islam?

 

[Looncall]

You know, for some reason most I see of reaction from people when they hear the word "religion" is that it is about believing, worshiping, conversion, telling people what to do, punishment, provocation, warnings...

To me Islam is not just a religion, it is a way of life.

To me Islam also teaches me to never raise my voice at my parents and the elderly, to eat only with my right hand and whats ahead and on front of me, to wash my private parts with water when I'm done, to wash those places and handle unclean stuff only with the left hand, to shake hands only with the right hand, to respond to greets with the same or a better greet (recommended), to never ever hit on the face, never resort to profanity, defines being a real man in holding one's anger not in brute force, to smile at people, to resort to what's forbidden like eating pork or drink alcohol if I have no other choice... and so many other stuff that I can tell you with authority that Islam does make me a better person. All of those and more in one package.

Now I know that the above are there every where else not just in Islam, but imagine that they are within a religious beliefs. That would mean that they will be taken seriously and considerably as long as one is a Muslim while if it is not in religion and within a belief system, it would be highly expected that it would be neglected or taken lightly. It would be stuff that may or may not be taught in schools or by parents. It is known how Muslims are devoted to Islam that they don't even like passive aggressive against their beliefs and figures, which makes them hold to the above good qualities (as I believe they are) and teach them to their children in both home and school. That would also spread them in communities with Muslim majorities, which is exactly how it is in my community.

Sorry for my ranting guys. Now where's my orange juice?

EDIT:
What I just said is debatable I know, but I thought maybe you wanted to hear it directly from a Muslim native of Makkah that lived and was educated in the home of Islam all his life, by his parents and Muslim schools.

Just for curiosity, would you still follow those cleanliness rules if you moved to a place that had abundant water for washing and fuel for cooking? They sound to me like necessities for desert living, nothing more.

Do you think it would be better to teach people science and how to reason about things rather than burden them with often unnecessary taboos?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Just for curiosity, would you still follow those cleanliness rules if you moved to a place that had abundant water for washing and fuel for cooking? They sound to me like necessities for desert living, nothing more.

Yes I would, and I would do it even more when I see fit. Having water around to have things clean also requires specific actions with it to actually clean well. I think for desert living it should be the other way around, to save as much as possible and be careful in using it since desert by nature has those in less amounts. Accordingly, I think that would emphasizes the importance of cleanliness even more. Where I live already has abundant water and fuel.

I hope I understood your question right.

Do you think it would be better to teach people science and how to reason about things rather than burden them with often unnecessary taboos?

Yes, I believe that science is better and more important. Could you please quote me with the specific part for asking this question so I see if I may give you a better answer? Perhaps also another one of my posts might be useful:

Cheers... and that's the way I wish all people take in religion. It is not a me vs you thing. Islam says that the favor (as in better doing good for people) of the scientist over the favor of the worshiper is like the favor of the moon over the rest of the planets, and the moon has a special significance in Islam (yes, the Quran mentions planets).

My best regards to the moderates in all and any religion

I hope I used the word "favor" correctly to give the meaning in the brackets.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

No but it's confirmed by news and other people's stories.

This is why people say "Don't believe everything you hear." The news is bias and often exaggerates anyway.

 

[Looncall]

Yes I would, and I would do it even more when I see fit. Having water around to have things clean also requires specific actions with it to actually clean well. I think for desert living it should be the other way around, to save as much as possible and be careful in using it since desert by nature has those in less amounts. Accordingly, I think that would emphasizes the importance of cleanliness even more. Where I live already has abundant water and fuel.

I hope I understood your question right.


Yes, I believe that science is better and more important. Could you please quote me with the specific part for asking this question so I see if I may give you a better answer? Perhaps also another one of my posts might be useful:

I hope I used the word "favor" correctly to give the meaning in the brackets.

Thanks for your helpful reply.

What I was trying to address was the idea of understanding things like microbology so as to tailor customs to circumstances. The customs you described seem to me to imply scarcity of water and fuel, just as one would expect in a desert. They make less sense to me where I live, or at least vacation; a forest where there is more area in rivers and lakes then in dry land.

However, if the customs get bound up in religion, they tend to be followed even where they are no longer needed.

Does this make sense to you?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Thanks for your helpful reply.

What I was trying to address was the idea of understanding things like microbology so as to tailor customs to circumstances. The customs you described seem to me to imply scarcity of water and fuel, just as one would expect in a desert. They make less sense to me where I live, or at least vacation; a forest where there is more area in rivers and lakes then in dry land.

However, if the customs get bound up in religion, they tend to be followed even where they are no longer needed.

Does this make sense to you?

You're welcome.

Yes, your thought makes complete sense to me.

Seems to me (please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're talking about cleanliness in general, not the specifics I mentioned Islam teaches me?

I also don't see yet how having the availability of resources you mentioned in nature and surroundings makes, for example, no need to clean the private parts (front and rear, dunno how to say it in English really) then wash the hands once we answer to nature in the bathroom.

As for following cleanliness for religious reasons; cleanliness is a teaching that can be followed as one sees fit not that they must be followed. So if not needed, it can be neglected. And by the way, when I follow those teachings, I don't do them with religion in mind, I do them because I like them. I just sometimes remember that Islam is what introduced it to me in the first place and makes me glad.

There is also one thing, which is the impression others get from us. When I know someone follows those teaching, I feel better and trusting when I for example shake their hands, take things they hand to me, have them prepare food for me when they do... Following the teaching that tells to want for the others what you want for yourself, make me want to do it in return too.

Please keep in mind that I'm not trying to belittle those who do it (or don't do it at all) differently than I do. I apologize if what I said implied that in anyway.

 

[adolphuscrowfeather]

Quick note, given situational context, enemies of Allah could mean, well, the people attacking them as in those who wanted to kill the Muslims at that time when it was first starting. It's more of defending yourself than actually killing those who defy the religion, and again, only applies to that exact time period, how I see it.

 

[Maponos]

Do you believe that the news is the be all end all of Islam?

When it happens over and over again, it gets ridiculous.

 

[McBell]

When it happens over and over again, it gets ridiculous.

You did not answer the question.

 

[Looncall]

Quick note, given situational context, enemies of Allah could mean, well, the people attacking them as in those who wanted to kill the Muslims at that time when it was first starting. It's more of defending yourself than actually killing those who defy the religion, and again, only applies to that exact time period, how I see it.

How do you know that it applies only to that period? How do you decide what passages no longer apply? If that is needed, it seems very weird to me for a supposedly infallible book that is supposed to apply everywhere for all time.

Are you sure that you are not just trying to weasel your way out of passages that conflict with our modern zeitgeist?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

You can be tolerant of something without approving it. Tolerance means you put up with it, it doesn't mean you have to like it or agree with it.

My definition of freedom is being as dumb as you want....on your own dime. They can believe and they can S&M each other (consenting adults) and have hell on earth all they want. But Islam requires all Muslims to bring about the submission of all non-Islamists. You can't be "tolerant" of someone wanting to murder you, or rob you, or enslave you, or interfere with your defense of yourself from those who would do those things to you or others.


Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

It just doesn't get any planer or more belligerent than that.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

My definition of freedom is being as dumb as you want....on your own dime. They can believe and they can S&M each other (consenting adults) and have hell on earth all they want. But Islam requires all Muslims to bring about the submission of all non-Islamists. You can't be "tolerant" of someone wanting to murder you, or rob you, or enslave you, or interfere with your defense of yourself from those who would do those things to you or others.


Quran (9:29):

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."

It just doesn't get any planer or more belligerent than that.

As it was discussed before, a lot of the time, Muhammad and the others referred to the Arab Pagans who they were fighting against. The Arab Pagan would be known as the "non-believer" they referred too. Not all of Islam was spread by the sword and some countries willingly adopted it or were influenced by it. Read the original post and there will be plenty of quotes that go against force conversion.

This book was written over a thousand years ago and Islam today isn't the same as it was back then. The bad Muslims who did terrible things back then have been dead for over a thousand years. One shouldn't punish them because of what their ancestors did. Also the Quran was written by multiple people, as Muhammad couldn't read or write and spoke it and others wrote it down. Same with the New Testament and Torah.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

As it was discussed before, a lot of the time, Muhammad and the others referred to the Arab Pagans who they were fighting against. The Arab Pagan would be known as the "non-believer" they referred too. Not all of Islam was spread by the sword and some countries willingly adopted it or were influenced by it. Read the original post and there will be plenty of quotes that go against force conversion.

Yet there's Quran (9:29). All Muslims are told to "fight".

This book was written over a thousand years ago and Islam today isn't the same as it was back then.

Excellent argument against it containing any divine authority, and the same arguments can be used against Judaism and Christianity. The rights to life, liberty, property and self-defense are the only items of morality that are self-evident via reason, not some ancient prophet telling us what God said.

The bad Muslims who did terrible things back then have been dead for over a thousand years. One shouldn't punish them because of what their ancestors did. Also the Quran was written by multiple people, as Muhammad couldn't read or write and spoke it and others wrote it down. Same with the New Testament and Torah.

More arguments against Islam or any revealed religion. And there are evil Muslims today: 9-11, Isis, Osama ben Laden, and any (all) Muslims who want to implement Sharia Law.