Please look to understand Islam isn't so bad.

[Kirran]

Okay

I thought you said you don't wanna get married because of your beliefs? Or was it you're against sex and you don't wanna have it and be celibate because of your beliefs? I don't remember exactly... anyways, disregards that

Yeah, that's right, I don't want to myself. But I'm not against it.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

The real split in Islam was not about interpretation but in succession. The Shi'a were called the Party of Ali because they believed Ali was the true successor. The Sunnis believe that Abu Bakr was the true successor. This led to war. It's more complicated than that, of course, but that's the very quick summary. To me it's important to understand the historical roots of the Sunni Shi'a split to understand what is going on in today's middle east.

There is also the Ahmadiyya Muslims as well as the Sufi Muslims. That is one of the major differences between Shia and Sunni. They have a few different rules as well. Sufi is probably the one that's the most different out of all the branches.

 

[Kirran]

There is also the Ahmadiyya Muslims as well as the Sufi Muslims. That is one of the major differences between Shia and Sunni. They have a few different rules as well. Sufi is probably the one that's the most different out of all the branches.

Sufis aren't actually a denomination in the same way. There are Sunni Sufis, Shia Sufis and Sufis who are neither but nevertheless are aligned with one tradition or another.

EDIT: Also, Sufis who don't even say they're Muslims.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Sufis aren't actually a denomination in the same way. There are Sunni Sufis, Shia Sufis and Sufis who are neither but nevertheless are aligned with one tradition or another.

I heard Sufism was called a denomination although some, like other Muslims, won't even consider them an Islamic group. Depends really. There's Ibadi Muslims and Quranists, too.

 

[Kirran]

I heard Sufism was called a denomination although some, like other Muslims, won't even consider them an Islamic group. Depends really. There's Ibadi Muslims and Quranists, too.

I wouldn't say it is, really. In some cases it acts like one. But many Sufis are Sunnis or Shiites. The Alevis are Sufi Shi'ites.

True, there are. Within Sunni Islam, there are four schools of jurisprudence as well: Hanbali, Shafi'i, Maliki and Hanbali. There is also the minor Zahiri school.

Within Shia, there are many sects based on opinions on the line of succession and the number of valid successors to Muhammad. Zaidis, Seveners, Twelvers, etc.

 

[columbus]

Muhammad got the Quran from God. Muhammad taught his people the Quran. His people wrote down the Quran, sometime with errors. But the versions with errors in them got destroyed.

This sounds like my understanding of Islam.

What the OP, @Theweirdtophat, claimed is that the Quraan was written by multiple people and contains many errors. Just like other scriptures.
You did not disagree with his post.
Tom

 

[Kirran]

The Sanaa Qur'ans contain differences to modern-day Qur'ans. So who knows how many differences they had to the Qur'an before it was even written down?

 

[YmirGF]

I heard Sufism was called a denomination although some, like other Muslims, won't even consider them an Islamic group. Depends really. There's Ibadi Muslims and Quranists, too.

That may be but when considering the raw numbers...

Of the total Muslim population, 10-13% are Shia Muslims and 87-90% are Sunni Muslims. Most Shias (between 68% and 80%) live in just four countries: Iran, Pakistan, India and Iraq.

<Source> ... the other variants of Islam have virtually no real support. It's sort of like bringing up Branch Davidians in a chat about Christianity. So, the great variety of thought you are trying to show is decidedly underwhelming in terms of influence and real numbers.

 

[Maponos]

My life experiences with Islam says otherwise.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I wish people wouldn't use that excuse. "Oh I've had bad experiences with them, so I'm just going to assume they are all bad." When I was little I used to be picked on by racist black and mestizo (Mexican) kids a lot but when I got older, that didn't make me hate all of them. Because I knew full well there were good and bad people black and mestizo people. There are good and bad Muslims, too, but so many have been brainwashed by the media or try to use their past experiences as a justification to hate all of them. Some people shouldn't.

 

[steeltoes]

I wish people wouldn't use that excuse. "Oh I've had bad experiences with them, so I'm just going to assume they are all bad." When I was little I used to be picked on by racist black and mestizo (Mexican) kids a lot but when I got older, that didn't make me hate all of them. Because I knew full well there were good and bad people black and mestizo people. There are good and bad Muslims, too, but so many have been brainwashed by the media or try to use their past experiences as a justification to hate all of them. Some people shouldn't.

In my opinion, this whole Muslim thing is overblown. I don't see Muslims as being any different than anyone else.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hey guys I'm Muslim, let's go have a drink together... I'll have fresh orange juice please

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Hey guys I'm Muslim, let's go have a drink together... I'll have fresh orange juice please

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[columbus]

I wish people wouldn't use that excuse. "Oh I've had bad experiences with them, so I'm just going to assume they are all bad."

I don't. Most of the experience I have with Muslims in real life here have been excellent.
I know that the Muslims I know are not a representative sample. They are the ones here in the USA. They remind me of @Smart_Guy, educated and peaceful and prosperous. I commonly heard "I prefer living here because there aren't any Muslims telling me how to believe, worship and live".

In the main, it is not Muslims I have a problem with. It is Islam. In particular, the teaching you deny even exists. The vast majority of Muslims do believe that the quraan is a magical book, straight from Allah, and complete. As a result they can justify all sorts of evil behavior of the sort a 7th century Arabic warlord might have done. Most don't, but the potential will always be there.
Most Muslims disagree, but I think ISIS is more like the original Muslims than smart_guy. He, and many other Muslims are very decent folks in spite of Islam, not because of it.
Tom

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I don't. Most of the experience I have with Muslims in real life here have been excellent.
I know that the Muslims I know are not a representative sample. They are the ones here in the USA. They remind me of @Smart_Guy, educated and peaceful and prosperous. I commonly heard "I prefer living here because there aren't any Muslims telling me how to believe, worship and live".

In the main, it is not Muslims I have a problem with. It is Islam. In particular, the teaching you deny even exists. The vast majority of Muslims do believe that the quraan is a magical book, straight from Allah, and complete. As a result they can justify all sorts of evil behavior of the sort a 7th century Arabic warlord might have done. Most don't, but the potential will always be there.
Most Muslims disagree, but I think ISIS is more like the original Muslims than smart_guy. He, and many other Muslims are very decent folks in spite of Islam, not because of it.
Tom

I obviously don't agree with everything from Islam but it does have good teachings. Anyone can take anything from a source and use it to justify criminal activities. The Quran does have good teachings, teachings you have ignored, too. People seem to make it out as if it's an irredeemable book full of evil and vice. It isn't. There are things I do disagree with but what I find is strange that they'll point out those things in the Quran but ignore what was said in the Torah or New Testament. It's hypocritical when a Jew or Christian condemns a Muslim for the stuff that's said in the Quran, yet THEIR own holy books have said bad things that are similar. Things change as well. It was written and spoken before 1,000 A.D. The Muslims today aren't the same as the Muslims of the past. Virtues and vices sometimes change. They can believe what they wish, too. ISIS represents the corrupt Muslims who wanted to force convert. Smart Guy represents the educated Muslim that actually tried to do good, and yes Muslims were highly educated back then. Of course there are some right now like Smart Guy, for example.

What would you do? Get rid of the idea of Islam? Ideas can't be destroyed. It's out in the open and it's up to the people to choose what to do with it

 

[McBell]

My life experiences with Islam says otherwise.

Do you believe that your experiences with Islam is the be all end all of Islam?

 

[Curious George]

I've made threads like this but I thought I'd shed some light. There's bad Muslims, like bad Buddhists, Christians, Pagans ect. and you're going to find good and bad in almost every group. People say that Muslims don't condemn terrorism but that's not true.

Norway's Muslims Form Protective Human Ring Around Oslo's Synagogue

There are some that not only condemn it openly and also fight against it. The United Arab Emirates, Jordan, Nigeria, Chad, ect, all Muslims majority countries have been actively fighting against Boko Haram and ISIS, two Islamic terrorist groups. If that's not enough proof that they condemn it, I don't know what is. Most Muslims don't do terrorist activities. Most people in GENERAL don't do this. It is strange because some people will say "Muslims don't condemn Islamic terrorism!" so loud, they can't hear the Muslims that ARE condemning it.

People will try to justify hating it due to the Quran because there's some bad stuff in it. Yeah, like there isn't messed up stuff in the Torah, New Testament? Even some Hindu and Dharmic scriptures have messed up stuff in it. Those books have both good and bad stuff in it. They will say that Muslims should be punished for what their ancestors did, but that's not good either. You don't punish people for what their ancestors did.

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe?" [The Qur'an 10:99]

Apostasy is a topic that can get confusing, especially since in Islam it's not merely the change of ones religion. In the Qur'an for example, it is stated over and over again that there is no compulsion in religion. You simply are not allowed to make someone believe against their will. (I gave one example above, there are others I can share if anyone is interested)

The topic of rejecting religion after being a believer is also mentioned in the Qur'an, but not once is a worldly punishment prescribed for it. For example one verse states:

"Indeed, those who have believed then disbelieved, then believed, then disbelieved, and then increased in disbelief - never will Allah forgive them, nor will He guide them to a way." [4:137]

As you can see it talks about disbelieving after believing over and over again but it never talks about punishing those people in this life. Actually, if people were killed for merely leaving the religion, how can they believe and disbelieve then believe and disbelieve again? Wouldn't they be already dead?

The confusion actually comes from a number of saying by Muhammad about people committing ridda and that they are to be executed. Thing is these sayings were about people who didn't just leave the religion, but they also joined the other side which was fighting Muslims at the time. (In early Islamic history Muslims were persecuted against by the Arab Pagans) In some of these sayings it becomes more clear that it's not just someone who leaves the religion, but someone who acts against the nation. In short, it's someone committing treason in terms we use today.

So as you can say, if you combine the fact that the Qur'an itself speaks against compulsion in matters of religion, with knowing a bit of history behind these sayings it becomes clear that there is no execution for the mere leaving of Islam.

"There shall be no compulsion in the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing." [2:256]"

Pay the poor-due. 2:43, 110, 277
Be good to parents, relatives, orphans, and the needy. Speak kindly and pay the poor-due. 2:83
If you believe it, prove it. (A good rule, but does it apply to Muslims, too?) 2:111
The Jews say the Christians are wrong, and vice versa. Yet they both believe in the Scriptures. 2:113
Give of your wealth to family, relatives, and the needy. Set slaves free. 2:177
Do not fight wars of aggression. (Does this apply only during Ramadan?) 2:190
"Do good." 2:195
Spend your money for good: to help your parents, your family, orphans, wayfarers, and the needy. 2:215
Help orphans. 2:220
"Make not Allah, by your oaths, a hindrance to ... making peace among mankind." 2:224
"If the debtor is in straitened circumstances, then (let there be) postponement to (the time of) ease." 2:280
Don't argue about things that you know nothing about. 3:66
Do not be guilty of usury, doubling and quadrpling the sum lent. 3:130
I suffer not the work of any worker, male or female, to be lost. Ye proceed one from another. 3:195
Help orphans and don't steal from them. 4:2, 4:10
Men and women proceed from one another. 4:25
"Kill not one another." 4:29
Be kind to parents, relatives, orphans, the needy, neighbors, and travelers. 4:36
Whoever participates in a good cause, will be rewarded. Whoever participates in an evil cause, will bear the consequences thereof. (It's not true, but it's a nice thought.) 4:85
If someone says Hi to you say Hi (or Howdy) back to them. 4:86
It is good to help the poor and make peace. 4:114
Value justice, for both poor and rich, even when it adversely affects you or your family's interests. 4:135
Don't lend money at unfairly high rates of interest. 4:161
"O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion."
Other translations render this "O people of the Book, do not be fanatical in your faith." (Amen to that!) 4:171
Don't hate other people. Treat everyone fairly. 5:8
Whoever kills a human being, it is as if he had killed all mankind. Whoever saves the life of one, it is as if he had saved the life of all.
(But see the next verse which says that the enemies of Allah and Muhammad will be killed, crucified, have their hands and feet cut off, or expelled. And after they die they will face "an awful doom.") 5:32
Pay the poor-due. 5:55
Feed and clothe the needy. Set a slave free. 5:89
Do good to parents, don't kill your children or other living things unnecessarily. 6:151
Don't steal from orphans. Don't cheat or lie. 6:152
Pay the poor-due. 7:156
Be kind and forgiving toward others. 7:199
And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it. 8:61
Men and women are protecting friends of one another. They enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and pay the poor-due. 9:71
"We see thee [Noah] but a mortal like us, and we see not that any follow thee save the most abject among us, without reflection. We behold in you no merit above us - nay, we deem you liars." 11:27
"Do not evil in the earth."
Treat people fairly, respect their possessions, and avoid evil. 11:85
Be kind to your relatives. 16:90
Be kind to your parents. Treat them with respect in their old age. 17:23
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarer. Don't selfishly squander your wealth. 17:26
Don't kill your children to avoid falling into poverty. 17:31
Don't steal from orphans. 17:34
Don't follow what you don't know. 17:36
"Speak that which is kindlier." 17:53
"Increase me in knowledge." 20:114
Feed the poor and unfortunate. 22:28
Don't lie. 22:30
Be kind to others, forbid injustice, and pay the poor-due. 22:41
Pay the poor-due. 22:78
Pay the poor-due. 23:4
Repel evil with that which is better. 23:96
Pay the poor-due. 24:37, 24:56
"And such of your slaves as seek a writing (of emancipation), write it for them if ye are aware of aught of good in them, and bestow upon them of the wealth of Allah which He hath bestowed upon you. Force not your slave-girls to whoredom."
Allah encourages you to set your slaves free if they are good enough. And don't pimp out your slave-girls (concubines). 24:33
Repel evil with good. 28:54
Be kind to your parents. 29:8
Men and women should help each other with love an mercy. 30:21
Help your family, the needy, and wayfarers. 30:38
Pay the poor-due. 31:4
"Be modest in thy bearing and subdue thy voice." 31:19
"Speak words straight to the point."
Say what you mean; mean what you say. 33:70
Good and evil are not the same. Repel evil with goodness. That way your enemies will become your friends. 41:34
Be loving and kind to your relatives. 42:23
It is wrong to oppress people. 42:42
Live peacefully with disbelievers. 43:88-89
Be kind to your parents. 46:15
Don't defame, insult, spy on, or backbite one another.. 49:11-12
Give of your wealth to help the poor. 51:19
"A guess can never take the place of the truth." 53:28
Pay the poor-due. 58:13
Pay the poor-due. 73:20
Don't defraud. 83:1-3
Free a slave, feed the hungry, and exhort one another to pity. 90:13-17
Don't oppress orphans or drive away beggars. 93:9-10
Pay the poor-due. That is true religion. 98:5
Let each person believe (or disbelieve) whatever he or she wishes. 109:1, 6

I applaud you. I think any rational person can see that Islam is not bad, rather the radicals are bad. However, many people are not rational and equate the people with all members of a group. The negative pr that these extremists are creating are undeniably damaging your religion while it is important to distance the religion from these groups their hooting and hollering of Islam scripture gets more media coverage than those religious leaders who publicly denounce the radicals. Moreover, that these radicals hide under the guise of guest amongst the religious causes problems for those who take action. What are Muslims to do when faced with this threat against their religion? What can the local governments do or are they doing to deal with groups like ISIS?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Islam isn't so bad.
Isn't so bad as what?
As it is perceived to be ?
As westerners see it ?
As it want's to be seen ?
As it could be?

We all see a different face of Islam depending on how it effects us.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I applaud you. I think any rational person can see that Islam is not bad, rather the radicals are bad. However, many people are not rational and equate the people with all members of a group. The negative pr that these extremists are creating are undeniably damaging your religion while it is important to distance the religion from these groups their hooting and hollering of Islam scripture gets more media coverage than those religious leaders who publicly denounce the radicals. Moreover, that these radicals hide under the guise of guest amongst the religious causes problems for those who take action. What are Muslims to do when faced with this threat against their religion? What can the local governments do or are they doing to deal with groups like ISIS?

Thanks! I agree that they give more coverage to the radicals and not give coverage to the Muslims that actually condemn it, gicving people the impression that Muslims don't condemn it when not only that there are Muslims that do, but actually fight against it. Because of this media coverage innocent Muslims end up getting discriminated and caught in the crossfire.

Strangely there are countries with militaristic views like in Burma where it's mostly Buddhist and they've openly went against non Buddhists, oppressing Christians, Muslims, Hindu's ect. That doesn't get new coverage However because this ISIS stuff is shoved in our faces a lot, people end up having a bad view of Islam and just assume they are all like that. Now I think if I showed you footage constantly of what some Burmese have done it, some people would get a negative view of Buddhists. I feel as if someone is trying to make these religions look bad or someone is trying to start something. Just something to divide the populace when we should be united during these times, Druids Christians, Muslims Hindu's ect.

 

[Curious George]

Thanks! I agree that they give more coverage to the radicals and not give coverage to the Muslims that actually condemn it, gicving people the impression that Muslims don't condemn it when not only that there are Muslims that do, but actually fight against it. Because of this media coverage innocent Muslims end up getting discriminated and caught in the crossfire.

Strangely there are countries with militaristic views like in Burma where it's mostly Buddhist and they've openly went against non Buddhists, oppressing Christians, Muslims, Hindu's ect. That doesn't get new coverage However because this ISIS stuff is shoved in our faces a lot, people end up having a bad view of Islam and just assume they are all like that. Now I think if I showed you footage constantly of what some Burmese have done it, some people would get a negative view of Buddhists. I feel as if someone is trying to make these religions look bad or someone is trying to start something. Just something to divide the populace when we should be united during these times, Druids Christians, Muslims Hindu's ect.

That is certainly possible that someone is trying to make the religion look bad, but don't forget that the radical groups themselves are posting coverage of atrocities committed by them on social media. That other groups do it as well does not excuse the radicals.

Another example are the cartel in Mexico and south America, the question must in all of these situations is what are the goverments and the people in those areas doing to stop these regimes and what can they do. I think Islamic nations face a peculiar pressure though because these acts are being tied to religion not only by the media but in by the groups. ISIS is communicating there message to the world under the guise of Islam. So what beyond denouncing such messages is the rest of the Islamic world capable of doing to prevent it? Can with the support of religious leaders people deny guest rights to groups like ISIS? Are there legal channels to remove children and other innocents from parents so less children die when governments apprehend or engage in combat with these groups? Can Islamic governments engage in combat with these groups? Are there any restraints to the arrest or killing of these individuals, religious or otherwise? And do you know what the government and communities are doing beyond just vocalizing their disagreement?