poll: are you an ape?

[LuisDantas]

Abdu'l-Baha got his credentials from is father, Baha'u'llah.
Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God so He got His credentials from God.

That is an interesting conundrum, since the implication is that God does not understand biology - or, alternatively, that it does not much care whether its spokepeople make misleading claims about biology.

Or are you implying that Abdul Baha was not using "species" in the biological sense? Even then, the misleading remains.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Many opinions​

However, there is still a great deal of disagreement, even in the scientific community, about whether humans are considered apes. Many, as previously mentioned, consider this whole Hominoid group as apes. Other scientists still use the historical definition, to describe non-human primates.

Indeed, this is the most common in everyday usage for laypeople too. The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines an ape as “any of various large tailless semi-erect primates of Africa and southeastern Asia (such as the chimpanzee, gorilla, orangutan, or gibbon)”.

​

Some researchers argue that we are not apes but ex-apes because we are fundamentally different from other apes. These differences are due to the way we communicate and other things that are not visible just by looking at DNA. In this case, the word “ape” should mean something different than Hominoid.

Unfortunately, there isn’t a straightforward answer to the question of whether humans are apes or not. The most common consensus is that non-human primates are considered apes, but many biologists are increasingly designating humans as part of this simian clade.

Are humans really apes?

Even though you look different, you share 99% of the same genes with most other apes.

www.zmescience.com

It is an interesting video. He made a couple of fundamental errors regarding evolution, adaptations and common ancestry. Adaptations are population level events driven by a population response to the environment and not the developmental and physiological responses of an individual to their immediate environment. We were also not daffodils in the remote past. We share a common ancestry with daffodils and other plants, but our line was not plants in the past. That split occurred and one line went to plants and ours continued on along a new branch.

If there is controversy over the details, that is not surprising. The main point is that the genetics, physiology, morphology, cytogenetics and homology all establish that we are related to the "other" great apes.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

They've always known about man.

• Dr. Zaius : You are right, I have always known about man. From the evidence, I believe his wisdom must walk hand and hand with his idiocy. His emotions must rule his brain. He must be a warlike creature who gives battle to everything around him, even himself.

If I was there, I'd show that Dr. Zaius whose boss.

Oh wait, that may be evidence for Dr. Zaius. Dang irony.

 

[Stevicus]

If I was there, I'd show that Dr. Zaius whose boss.

Oh wait, that may be evidence for Dr. Zaius. Dang irony.

Well, he got his comeuppance in the sequel when he started to wonder why he agreed to work in such a horrible production.

"Beware the films of man."

 

[Trailblazer]

That is an interesting conundrum, since the implication is that God does not understand biology - or, alternatively, that it does not much care whether its spokepeople make misleading claims about biology.

Or are you implying that Abdul Baha was not using "species" in the biological sense? Even then, the misleading remains.

Even if man descended from an ape, that does not mean that man IS an ape. Human and chimp DNA are not the same.

How Different Is Human and Chimp DNA?​

Making the Leap from Ape to Adam

If you just connect all the dots, isn’t it easy to see how the first humans could evolve from a shared ancestor with the apes?

answersingenesis.org

What explains the differences in human and chimp DNA?

Christians believe the differences are because God created Adam and Eve with millions of DNA differences at the start.
Baha'is believe the differences are because changes took place during the evolutionary process, and at a certain point man began to evolve along a different line.

I don't know is Abdu'l-Baha was using "species" in the biological sense, but whether man is an ape or not is not all decided by solely biology, since man is more than an animal.

 

[Trailblazer]

The main point is that the genetics, physiology, morphology, cytogenetics and homology all establish that we are related to the "other" great apes.

I do not dispute that we are related to the "other" great apes.. What I dispute is that we ARE great apes!

 

[LuisDantas]

Out of curiosity, @Trailblazer , how do you expect you would answer a poll about whether we are material beings?

 

[Trailblazer]

Out of curiosity, @Trailblazer , how do you expect you would answer a poll about whether we are material beings?

I would say we are material beings as well as spiritual beings.

 

[LuisDantas]

Even if man descended from an ape,

We are.

that does not mean that man IS an ape.

Actually it does... unless you mean to claim that somehow humans aren't part of the animal kingdom or that we somehow fled our biological clade altogether.

Either are very, very extraordinary claims that would require some serious amounts and quality of evidence. Not least because the counterevidence is unsurmountable.

Human and chimp DNA are not the same.

Indeed. The same can be just as fairly said of any other two species within any given clade - or, for that matter, any other two species at all.

(...)

What explains the differences in human and chimp DNA?

In a word: biology. Or, if you prefer, evolution.

Those differences aren't even remarkable, let alone difficult to explain.

Christians believe the differences are because God created Adam and Eve with millions of DNA differences at the start.
Baha'is believe the differences are because changes took place during the evolutionary process, and at a certain point man began to evolve along a different line.

I guess you are all free to believe however you want.

The epistemology of it all will remain problematic nonetheless. And there are (and should be) social, religious and even political consequences.

I don't know is Abdu'l-Baha was using "species" in the biological sense, but whether man is an ape or not is not all decided by solely biology, since man is more than an animal.

Actually, that is exactly how it is decided. Or has "ape" become a non-biological word when I wasn't paying attention?

 

[LuisDantas]

I would say we are material beings as well as spiritual beings.

In a "yes or no" poll, would that be a yes or a no?

 

[Jimmy]

I’M KING KONG SON

 

[danieldemol]

Unfortunately, there isn’t a straightforward answer to the question of whether humans are apes or not. The most common consensus is that non-human primates are considered apes, but many biologists are increasingly designating humans as part of this simian clade.

Simians are still animals according to my understanding so I believe Abdul-Baha is still wrong.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I do not dispute that we are related to the "other" great apes.. What I dispute is that we ARE great apes!

I don't know that we are not. We can still be in the same taxonomic family. Being a mammal, we share an ancestry with dogs, bears, whales, mice, rats, chinchillas, kangaroos, etc., but we are not those animals and still fit in the class Mammalia. We are not gorillas, chimpanzees or orangutans, but we are still a member of the family Hominidae based on the key criteria used to define membership of that group.

Evolution is an ongoing and continuing process, so perhaps we will evolve to a point where our descendants are no longer classifiable as Hominidae. The ancestral relationship would still exist.

 

[Trailblazer]

In a "yes or no" poll, would that be a yes or a no?

I could not answer yes or no in a poll for the reason I already gave.

 

[Stevicus]

I’M KING KONG SON

 

[Valjean]

I am a naysayer and I believe that humans are animals, although we are more than just animals, since we have a soul.
My belief is that other animals have a spirit but not a soul.

Interesting. What's the difference, and why do you think other animals have something different?

On what evidence do you base your belief in souls?

 

[Valjean]

Here is a video of a orangutan--King Louie--that wants to be a man. Not much as evidence, but funny. The idea of this is based on the fact that we are related.

How did an orang utan make it to India?

 

[Trailblazer]

Interesting. What's the difference, and why do you think other animals have something different?

I believe other animals have something different because it is what my religion teaches.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 208

On what evidence do you base your belief in souls?

My belief in the soul is based upon what my religion teaches.
There is no evidence for souls because the soul is a mystery.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

 

[Heyo]

I answered no, but probably not for the same reasons that Christians would answer no, since Baha'is believe that evolution is a fact.

While `Abdu'l-Bahá states that man progressed through many stages before reaching this present form, `Abdu'l-Bahá states that humans are a distinct species, and not an animal, and that in every stage of evolution through which humans progressed, they were potentially humans. Nov 8, 2022

Bahá'í Faith and Science | Encyclopedia MDPI​

So Abdu'l-Bahá is oblivious of the monophyly principle of evolutionary biology.
Basically, it states that you can't escape your ancestry. When your parents were human, you are a human. When your grand parents were great apes, you are a great ape. When your great grand parents were simiformes (monkeys), you are a monkey.
In the same way you are a primate, a mammal, a chordate and an animal.

This video series explains that in detail:

And no, there is no debate in biology about monophyly.

 

[joelr]

Some people don't seem to understand what the taxonomy is and that ape starts with the Order - Primates.
Haplorhini, the Suborder is broken down into "flat nose apes".
Simiiformes, the Infraorder is "higher primates", who are also flat nose apes.
Hominidae, the Family, is the "great apes"
Homininae, the Subfmily is "African Hominids"
Hominini, Tribe, is "Homo" or "Pan"
Genus, Homo is several hominids who are extinct and homo sapien/modern human


Humans is our Genus but we all have a Tribe, Subfamily, Family and so on and it's way up at Order where we are under the "Ape" order.

Domain:	Eukaryota
Kingdom:	Animalia
Phylum:	Chordata
Class:	Mammalia
Order:	Primates
Suborder:	Haplorhini
Infraorder:	Simiiformes
Family:	Hominidae
Subfamily:	Homininae
Tribe:	Hominini
Genus:	Homo