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poll: are you an ape?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Not really. I was once an owl. I evolved...
...into Nataraja...
...and again into Santa Claus. 
I think he is a rabbit, but sometimes he pretends to be something else in order to finagle a bowl of Trix.
Do you generally regard humans as animals, vertebrates and mammals for purposes of, let's say, dietary and medical concerns?
Do you expect humanity to be different from other species to the degree that it would create noticeable exceptions there?
I don't. And I fail to see why it would be any different to admit that humans are material beings and, indeed, Apes and specifically Hominidae alongside other Apes.
To make it a religious matter of faith to actually doubt or deny such obvious facts is... well, it is just weird.
You mean he said he did. I don't believe there were any witnesses to this message-receiving.
So belief despite no tangible evidence. Is that rational?
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Because some people legit try to pull some cosmic level mental gymnastics to say it's 5 by virtue of a bad understanding of post modernism run amok.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Humams aren't the only ones who do that. Octopodes, crows, dolphins, elephants, other great apes, even cats amd dogs are able to do such things.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
@LuisDantas
Can you tell me why you think this post is sad? What is sad about it?
Can you tell me why you think this post is sad?
What is sad about it?poll: are you an ape?
Abdu'l-Baha got his credentials from is father, Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God so He got His credentials from God. That is an interesting conundrum, since the implication is that God does not understand biology - or, alternatively, that it does not much care whether its...
www.religiousforums.com
I just don't think that it is proper nor fortunate for anyone to value religious teaching over scientific knowledge.@LuisDantas
Can you tell me why you think this post is sad?
poll: are you an ape?
Abdu'l-Baha got his credentials from is father, Baha'u'llah. Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God so He got His credentials from God. That is an interesting conundrum, since the implication is that God does not understand biology - or, alternatively, that it does not much care whether its...www.religiousforums.com
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why does it have to be one or the other? Baha'is believe that both science and religion are vital for humanity to survive and thrive.
Science and Religion
Bahá’ís reject the notion that there is an inherent conflict between science and religion, a notion that became prevalent in intellectual discourse at a time when the very conception of each system of knowledge was far from adequate. The harmony of science and religion is one of the fundamental principles of the Bahá’í Faith, which teaches that religion, without science, soon degenerates into superstition and fanaticism, while science without religion becomes merely the instrument of crude materialism. “Religion,” according to the Bahá’í writings, “is the outer expression of the divine reality. Therefore, it must be living, vitalized, moving and progressive.”1 “Science is the first emanation from God toward man. All created things embody the potentiality of material perfection, but the power of intellectual investigation and scientific acquisition is a higher virtue specialized to man alone. Other beings and organisms are deprived of this potentiality and attainment.”2
So far as earthly existence is concerned, many of the greatest achievements of religion have been moral in character. Through its teachings and through the examples of human lives illumined by these teachings, masses of people in all ages and lands have developed the capacity to love, to give generously, to serve others, to forgive, to trust in God, and to sacrifice for the common good. Social structures and institutional systems have been devised that translate these moral advances into the norms of social life on a vast scale. In the final analysis, the spiritual impulses set in motion by the Founders of the world’s religions—the Manifestations of God—have been the chief influence in the civilizing of human character.
‘Abdu’l-Bahá has described science as the “most noble” of all human virtues and “the discoverer of all things”.3 Science has enabled society to separate fact from conjecture. Further, scientific capabilities—of observing, of measuring, of rigorously testing ideas—have allowed humanity to construct a coherent understanding of the laws and processes governing physical reality, as well as to gain insights into human conduct and the life of society.
Taken together, science and religion provide the fundamental organizing principles by which individuals, communities, and institutions function and evolve.
Science and Religion | An Ever-Advancing Civilization | God and His Creation | What Bahá’ís Believe
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
Here is the current thought of the Baha'i Faith on this. From the forward of the latest edition of Some Answered Question by Abdu'l-Baha:
A notable case in point is the treatment of the subject of the evolution of species, which is taken up explicitly in Part 4, and which must be understood in light of several Bahá’í teachings, especially the principle of the harmony of science and religion. Religious belief should not contradict science and reason. A certain reading of some of the passages found in Chapters 46–51 may lead some believers to personal conclusions that contradict modern science. Yet the Universal House of Justice has explained that Bahá’ís strive to reconcile their understanding of the statements of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá with established scientific perspectives, and therefore it is not necessary to conclude that these passages describe conceptions rejected by science, for example, a kind of “parallel” evolution that proposes a separate line of biological evolution for the human species parallel to the animal kingdom since the beginning of life on earth.
A careful review of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá’s statements in this volume and in other sources suggests that His concern is not with the mechanisms of evolution but with the philosophical, social, and spiritual implications of the new theory. His use of the term “species”, for example, evokes the concept of eternal or permanent archetypes, which is not how the term is defined in contemporary biology. He takes into account a reality beyond the material realm. While ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá acknowledges elsewhere the physical attributes that human beings share in common with the animal and that are derived from the animal kingdom, in these talks He emphasizes another capacity, a capacity for rational consciousness, that distinguishes man from the animal and that is not found in the animal kingdom or in nature itself. This unique capacity, an expression of the human spirit, is not a product of the evolutionary process, but exists potentially in creation. As ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá explains, “…since man was produced ten or a hundred thousand years ago from the same earthly elements, with the same measures and quantities, the same manner of composition and combination, and the same interactions with other beings—it follows that man was exactly the same then as exists now”. “And if a thousand million years hence,” He goes on to say, “the component elements of man are brought together, measured out in the same proportion, combined in the same manner, and subjected to the same interaction with other beings, exactly the same man will come into existence.” His essential argument, then, is not directed towards scientific findings but towards the materialist assertions that are built upon them. For Bahá’ís, the science of evolution is accepted, but the conclusion that humanity is merely an accidental branch of the animal kingdom—with all its attendant social implications—is not.
Here's a follow up letter by the Universal House of Justice:
Dear Bahá’í Friend,
Your email letter dated 19 June 2015 including your thoughtful questions about a paragraph regarding evolution in the foreword to the 2014 edition of Some Answered Questions has been received by the Universal House of Justice, which has asked us to convey to you the following in reply. The delay in our response, which is due to the pressure of work at the Bahá’í World Centre, is regretted.
As you have observed, the purpose of the paragraph in question, which the House of Justice approved for inclusion in the foreword, does not limit how a Bahá’í, as an individual, may personally choose to interpret the Sacred Writings. Yet, the paragraph does not insist that science is “absolute truth”, nor, as you seem to conclude, does it attempt to “apologize” for ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá’s statements. Rather, recognizing that He would not make a statement that contradicts reality, the paragraph encourages the friends to use all of the relevant texts on the subject as well as the most accurate and reliable picture of reality that science can provide to try to understand what ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá actually is conveying.
It is evident that there are instances throughout history when statements made in the Sacred Scriptures that conflicted with the scientific views of the time were confirmed by science itself centuries later. There also may well be statements in the Writings about the material world the veracity of which will be proven by science in future. The notion of scientific “truth” does not encompass every claim or theory asserted in the name of science. But while a great deal of scientific discourse is tentative and subject to change, some scientific statements are accurate and reliable descriptions of reality, and those findings are not in conflict with true religion, that is, with the Revelation and its authorized interpretations. It is for this reason that ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá emphasizes that religious beliefs should be weighed in the light of science and reason, so that personal interpretations of the meaning of the Revelation, which are also fallible and subject to change, do not lead to incorrect conclusions.
The Master’s statements on evolution are subtle and complex and must be understood within the context of the entirety of the Bahá’í teachings, because His statements are both predicated upon and coherent with those teachings. In the passages found in Some Answered Questions, as well as in numerous other Tablets and talks, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá elaborates upon the principle of the harmony of science and religion, observes that human beings and animals have in common the same physical nature, emphasizes that it is the mind and the soul that distinguish humanity, and rejects the idea that human beings are merely animals, a haphazard accident, and captives of nature trapped in the struggle for existence. In light of all such statements, it is possible for a Bahá’í to conclude that one can disagree with the materialistic philosophical interpretation of scientific findings—that man is merely an animal and a random expression of nature—without contesting the scientific findings themselves, such as those in genetics which are incompatible with a concept of “parallel” evolution.
Of course, different individuals, using their rational powers to reach personal interpretations of scientific findings and the meaning of Sacred Texts, may come to different conclusions on different questions. This is the inevitable outcome of the independent investigation of truth. On certain matters, there may for a time be a degree of ambiguity; on others, an exchange of views conducted in a consultative spirit may make the truth evident. Yet, in their efforts to explore the ocean of Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation, the House of Justice hopes that the friends will guard against two extremes. The first is to simply dismiss the truths found in the Revelation owing to a dogmatic attachment to materialistic interpretations of scientific findings. The second is to assume that in every instance where one’s personal understanding of the teachings conflicts with scientific findings, it is these findings that must change in future, for such a posture would place Bahá’ís in the position of constantly contending with science. Both of these extremes are incompatible with the Bahá’í principle of the harmony of science and religion.
As you consider this matter, you may find of interest the work of those believers who have attempted to correlate ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá’s statements with contemporary science, such as the article “Religion and Evolution Reconciled: ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá’s Comments on Evolution” by Courosh Mehanian and Stephen R. Friberg, published in The Journal of Bahá’í Studies, volume 13, number 1/4, pages 55–93, which may be found at bahai-studies.ca/past-issues.
With loving Bahá’í greetings,
Department of the Secretariat
The article mentioned at the end is over 30 pages long, and you may not have the time to read that. But suffice it to say I know of the findings of genetics and am convinced that Chimpanzees and man have a common ancestor several million years ago and I am comfortable with that as a Baha'i. Any questions?
It doesn't, of course.
But denialism is never a good thing.
So do I. I just don't approve of the Bahai's take on the matter. I am all too aware of how dangerous it is.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I could say the same thing to you. Denialism is never a good thing.
How is the Baha'i take on evolution dangerous?
I knew you were related to kangaroos!
It is obscurantist, superstitious denialism. It misguides, discourages critical thinking, and encourages blind obedience to social leaders even when we are fully aware that they are lying.
I am not an ape nor a monkey’s uncle
Viker
Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
That's your prerogative. I'm not going to monkey around to try and convince you otherwise.