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poll: are you an ape?

are you an ape?


  • Total voters
    71

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Some other animals are able to reason in a fashion, but only humans discover the realities of things and become cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.

When is the last time you saw any other animals enrolled in a university?
If that were true we'd be the only animal to solve problems and find creative solutions to problems (corvids like ravens and crows are especially shrewd, amd able to figure out the group hierarchy of other groups, something that until recently was assumed only we could do), but we have observed and documented that some other animals even appear capabke of basic arithmetic.
This video shows that monkeys (who can also learn to trade and how to use currency) have similar expectations of objects that we do.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah said the opposite, he said between current science and his books his books win;

'Weigh not the Book of God with such standards and sciences as are current amongst you, for the Book itself is the unerring balance established amongst men.'
Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 73-74
Thanks for sharing that. It makes a good point.
God is All-Knowing, and since Baha'u'llah had the knowledge of God, of course Baha'u'llah knew more than any scientist, past or present.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
OK, so what sort of evidence is it? How is imperceptible evidence even evidence?
I said "There is evidence, just no 'tangible' evidence."

What is Tangible Evidence?​
Evidence which is real or concrete; capable of being touched or felt and has a real substance, a tangible object; similar to demonstrative evidence.​

I did not say that the evidence is imperceptible.

What does imperceptible mean?​
1. : not noticeable : not perceptible by a sense or by the mind. one whose beauty was imperceptible to others.​
2. : hardly noticeable : very small or gradual.​

There is evidence of spiritual things that is perceptible by the mind.
Tangible Evidence
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think doing so is misleading at best.

Tangible means perceptible through the sense of touch...palpable. Is everything that is not palpable imperceivable?

When is the last time you touched a thought? Are you unable to perceive your thoughts?

There is a clear distinction between the terms.
I wrote: "I'm considering the terms essentially synonymous here."

Point taken. I understand the etymology, and semantic subtleties, but I was using the terms in a broad, colloquial sense. That's why I used the modifiers "essentially" and "here."

My point is, there is no evidence that can be seen, heard, touched, deduced, or detected with machines or mathematics.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I said "There is evidence, just no 'tangible' evidence."

What is Tangible Evidence?​
Evidence which is real or concrete; capable of being touched or felt and has a real substance, a tangible object; similar to demonstrative evidence.​

I did not say that the evidence is imperceptible.

What does imperceptible mean?​
1. : not noticeable : not perceptible by a sense or by the mind. one whose beauty was imperceptible to others.​
2. : hardly noticeable : very small or gradual.​

There is evidence of spiritual things that is perceptible by the mind.
Tangible Evidence
Would that be "imaginary" evidence?
People have always relied on "gut feelings" in their assessment of things, but the feeling were never culturally consistent, congruent with facts, or communicable.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
If that were true we'd be the only animal to solve problems and find creative solutions to problems (corvids like ravens and crows are especially shrewd, amd able to figure out the group hierarchy of other groups, something that until recently was assumed only we could do), but we have observed and documented that some other animals even appear capabke of basic arithmetic.
This video shows that monkeys (who can also learn to trade and how to use currency) have similar expectations of objects that we do.
I did not say that animals could not solve problems and find creative solutions to problems.
Quoting Abdu'l-Baha I said: "only humans discover the realities of things and become cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings."

Other animals do not have the same mental capacities of humans. That is a scientific fact that was brought to the fore by Adbu'l-Baha.

2 Mental Abilities Separate Humans from Animals

Most animal species can be categorized as either specialists or generalists, but humans are both: we are capable of quickly adapting to local demands, even to anticipated demands, by acquiring relevant expertise. Moreover, through cooperation and division of labor, we can benefit from complementary skills, thereby enabling us to dominate most diverse habitats. We can keep even the fiercest predators in our zoos because we can foresee what they need and what they can and cannot do. So far there is no obvious evidence of other species engaging in such mental time travel nor in exchanging plots for a coordinated escape from the zoo when the conditions are right next summer.

With nested scenario building and the urge to wire their minds together, our ancestors eventually spawned civilizations and technologies that have changed the face of the earth. Science is the disciplined use of our collective wit, and we can deploy it to better understand the origin of our place in nature. We can further use it to model the future systematically and ever more clearly. By foreseeing the consequences of our actions, we are also confronted with moral choices between different options. We can predict the consequences of continuing pollution or destruction of animal habitats, inform others about them and, as the Paris climate agreement dramatically demonstrates, negotiate globally coordinated actions aimed at more desirable outcomes.

None of this is an excuse for arrogance. It is, in fact, a call for care. We are the only creatures on this planet with these abilities.

2 Mental Abilities Separate Humans from Animals


Do animals have the same mental capacity as humans?

"Animals share many of the building blocks that comprise human thought, but paradoxically, there is a great cognitive gap between humans and animals," Hauser says. "By looking at key differences in cognitive abilities, we find the elements of human cognition that are uniquely human. Feb 17, 2008

Summary:

A Harvard scientist presents a new hypothesis on what defines the cognitive rift between humans and animals. He identifies four key differences in human thought that make it unique. Animals, for example, have "laser beam" intelligence, in which a specific solution is used to solve a specific problem. But these solutions cannot be applied to new situations or to solve different kinds of problem. In contrast, humans have "floodlight" cognition, allowing us to use thought processes in new ways and to apply the solution of one problem to another situation.

What Is The Cognitive Rift Between Humans And Other Animals?

 

osgart

Nothing my eye, Something for sure
We are animals with transformative abilities. Only human apes can transform their hearts by the power of understanding and comprehension. I don't see other apes with that capability. The capacity for understanding and self awareness enables humans to have free will, and can transcend what the environment dictates.

Animals are all otherwise just as alive as humans are.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You are simply preaching without evidence here as was your leader Baha'u'llah in my view.
You are the one who introduced the quote from Baha'u'llah. I just responded to your post. That is not preaching.
No, there is no evidence that God is All-Knowing, but there is evidence that Baha'u'llah spoke for God, although there is no proof.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I did not say that animals could not solve problems and find creative solutions to problems.
Quoting Abdu'l-Baha I said: "only humans discover the realities of things and become cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings."

Other animals do not have the same mental capacities of humans. That is a scientific fact that was brought to the fore by Adbu'l-Baha.

2 Mental Abilities Separate Humans from Animals

Most animal species can be categorized as either specialists or generalists, but humans are both: we are capable of quickly adapting to local demands, even to anticipated demands, by acquiring relevant expertise. Moreover, through cooperation and division of labor, we can benefit from complementary skills, thereby enabling us to dominate most diverse habitats. We can keep even the fiercest predators in our zoos because we can foresee what they need and what they can and cannot do. So far there is no obvious evidence of other species engaging in such mental time travel nor in exchanging plots for a coordinated escape from the zoo when the conditions are right next summer.

With nested scenario building and the urge to wire their minds together, our ancestors eventually spawned civilizations and technologies that have changed the face of the earth. Science is the disciplined use of our collective wit, and we can deploy it to better understand the origin of our place in nature. We can further use it to model the future systematically and ever more clearly. By foreseeing the consequences of our actions, we are also confronted with moral choices between different options. We can predict the consequences of continuing pollution or destruction of animal habitats, inform others about them and, as the Paris climate agreement dramatically demonstrates, negotiate globally coordinated actions aimed at more desirable outcomes.

None of this is an excuse for arrogance. It is, in fact, a call for care. We are the only creatures on this planet with these abilities.

2 Mental Abilities Separate Humans from Animals


Do animals have the same mental capacity as humans?

"Animals share many of the building blocks that comprise human thought, but paradoxically, there is a great cognitive gap between humans and animals," Hauser says. "By looking at key differences in cognitive abilities, we find the elements of human cognition that are uniquely human. Feb 17, 2008
Summary:

A Harvard scientist presents a new hypothesis on what defines the cognitive rift between humans and animals. He identifies four key differences in human thought that make it unique. Animals, for example, have "laser beam" intelligence, in which a specific solution is used to solve a specific problem. But these solutions cannot be applied to new situations or to solve different kinds of problem. In contrast, humans have "floodlight" cognition, allowing us to use thought processes in new ways and to apply the solution of one problem to another situation.

What Is The Cognitive Rift Between Humans And Other Animals?

What does any of this have to do with humans as apes? Ape is not defined by intelligence or technology. If a thing fits a definition, the definition denotes the thing. Humans fit the biological definition of "ape."
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
What does any of this have to do with humans as apes? Ape is not defined by intelligence or technology. If a thing fits a definition, the definition denotes the thing. Humans fit the biological definition of "ape."
Humans do not fit the biological definition of "ape" because humans are humans, not apes.
Being descended from apes does not make humans apes.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Humans do not fit the biological definition of "ape" because humans are humans, not apes.
Chairs are not furniture, because chairs are chairs.
Houses are not structues, because houses are houses.
Catamarans are not boats, because boats are boats.
:rolleyes:
.....
Being descended from apes does not make humans apes.
What does it make us, then?
 
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danieldemol

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
You are the one who introduced the quote from Baha'u'llah. I just responded to your post. That is not preaching.
No, there is no evidence that God is All-Knowing, but there is evidence that Baha'u'llah spoke for God, although there is no proof.
I believe there is no reliable evidence that Baha'u'llah spoke for God.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Humans do not fit the biological definition of "ape" because humans are humans, not apes.
Being descended from apes does not make humans apes.

Yes we do fit the biological definition of ape. Just because your theology says otherwise doesn't make it so. My theology states we were crafted from driftwood. We still are great apes, hominins.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Of course you always were a monkey's cousin. But forgive me if I have doubts about you identifying as an atheist. You might be able to mimic being one. Oooh, that is a challenge. See if you can respond rationally in all of your posts today.
Must be a different group that you come from vs. where I came from. :)

You are forgiven, my cousin atheist.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Chairs are not furniture, because chairs are chairs.
Houses are not structures, because houses are houses.
Catamarans are not boats, because boats are boats.
.....
Chairs are furniture but not all furniture are chairs.
Houses are structures but not all structures are houses.
Catamarans are boats but not all boats are catamarans.
Apes are animals but not all animals are apes.
What does it make us, then?
Humans.
 
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