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poll: are you an ape?
- Thread starter Eddi
- Start date
Anyone can see that a chimp is different from an orang-utan, but they are both apes.
Anyone can see that a chair is different from a table, but they are both furniture.
Are orang-utans also more than their biology?Even if we are biologically similar to apes, humans are more than their biology.
How Are Humans Different from Other Great Apes?
The Academy, in collaboration with the Center for Academic Research and Training in Anthropogeny (CARTA), hosted the Morton L. Mandel Public Lecture on “How Are Humans Different from Other Great Apes?” featuring Ajit P. Varki, Pascal Gagneux, Fred H. Gage, and Margaret J. Schoeninger.www.amacad.org
Heyo
Veteran Member
Well, the statement I reacted to isn't.
Humans do fit the biological definition of "ape". If you don't care about cladistics you are bound to look stupid when you talk about it - and you're bound to be wrong.
So, if you really care about what is true, you have to know what you are talking about.
Other apes don't?
It seems like you are identifying as a believer… WOW - what a Christmas present¡
Make sure you pray for me.
Subduction Zone
Veteran Member
No, Not at all. But unlike creationists I still respect the Christian religion. I am surprised that creationists don't.It seems like you are identifying as a believer… WOW - what a Christmas present¡
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Anyone can see that a chimp is different from a human, even if they are both apes.
Maybe, but not the same way humans are.
Only humans have an immortal soul that survives death.
Like all animals, orang-utans have a spirit, but nobody knows if the animal spirit survives death.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
It is really important for you to be right, isn't it?
I don't care about being right, although I care about knowing/believing what is true.
So what if they do? Big deal. Does knowing that make you feel smart? Anyone can look that up on the internet, it doesn't make them smart.
I do not care about looking smart and I don't care if I look stupid because I have no false pride.
If I am wrong I am willing to admit it. Are you? Are you willing to admit that apes and humans are not the same, a fact that is supported by science?
What Is The Cognitive Rift Between Humans And Other Animals?
How Are Humans Different from Other Great Apes?
I said I care about what is true but I also said I do not care about cladistics.
Does caring about cladistics make me a better person? If not, I don't have time for it at this stage of my life.
Why should I care about cladistics? Do you care about geography and psychology, which are the subjects I studied in college?
I do not normally discuss any science subjects on this forum since science is not my area of expertise, and I am not ashamed of that at all.
OK, I'd grant ensoulment might be a significant difference, but where's the evidence for it, and what makes you think cats, dogs or chimps don't have souls?
At what point in human evolution was a soul installed, I wonder.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
There is no evidence for a soul, that is only a religious belief.
My religion teaches that the soul is a mystery.
That is my religious belief.
I also wonder, but that is not something we can know, since God did the installation.
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
There are people who are aware of these spirits surviving death and have witnessed them, but it's the decision of others whether to believe them or not.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I believe that animal spirits survive death even though that is not what my religion teaches.
Heyo
Veteran Member
It is really important for me to know the truth.
That's how I've come to know you. The more puzzled I am that you are willing to die on this hill.
It makes them right.
I don't even have to read that. The titles only show that I am right. "Other Animals" and "Other Great Apes". That says that humans are animals and that humans are great apes.
It's not so much science we are discussing but logic. (And I know from past interactions that you care about being rational in your belief.)
Cladistics is an application of set theory which is an important part of logic.
You have to know that natural language is often ambiguous and that may be the case why you are confused here.
A is B can have the meaning of A = B (identity) or A ∊ B. As B in our case is a group (apes) and A is a subgroup(humans) it makes sense to say that humans are members of the greater group of apes. That doesn't mean that they are identical.
Understanding that will not necessarily make you a better person but it will make you a more rational person - if you are still interested in being rational in your beliefs. (A claim I have frequently heard but very rarely followed through.)
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
The truth about what?
What hill? God could not give a damn what I believe about cladistics and since I only care about what God thinks of me maybe you can do the math.
So what? Why does it matter if they are right, other than to bolster their ego?
It is almost unbelievable that anyone would care this much about being right, that they would not even care about anything else.
I conceded to humans are animals and humans are great apes but what difference does it make in the overall scheme of life?
Humans are a lot of other things but you don't even want to look at those because you are so obsessed with one thing.
No, I do not need to know cladistics in order to be a rational person, and it certainly does not help me to be a more spiritual person, which is all I really care about. A need to be right is death to humility, which is one of the most important attributes of spirituality.
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Why do you believe it is a fact?
How, because someone has said to you so?
No. Because I gathered and studied all the information available to me and arrived at that knowledge through critical thinking.
Because we fit the biological definition of "ape." Because our anatomy, physiology and genetics indicates a common and recent ancestor amongst us apes.
If something fits the definition of chair, it's a chair. If it fits the definition of bird, it's a bird. We fit the definition of ape, so what else could we be?
exchemist
Veteran Member
No. All it takes is understanding of the meaning of terms. Here is the first definition of great ape, from a 10second internet search:
great ape
noun
- Any of various apes of the family Hominidae, which includes the chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and humans, but not the gibbons.
- An ape of the family Hominidae, having a mostly hairless face, hands with complex fingerprints, and flat fingernails. Includes the gorilla and chimpanzee (subfamily Homininae), and orangutan (subfamily Ponginae). Usage may vary to either include or exclude humans (members of Homininae subfamily).
- Any of the large anthropoid apes of the family Pongidae.