What exactly is evil? And what is evil when it comes to saving one's life? Have you ever had to face adversity in your life where you had to break the law in order to survive? I have. I have been homeless. I had to eat out of dumpsters in order to survive. And while it was not legal to do same, I would do it again in a heart beat. Do you understand the difference between wanting to survive and being asked to give up one's life for another because they are vastly different.
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Poll: Give up your religion to save a stranger
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
- Start date
Thanda
Well-Known Member
That is why I said there may be things some people will do that we don't like. But on the whole, if all people lived by their conscience there would be much less evil in the world than there is now.
Thanda
Well-Known Member
Firstly let us understand that there is a difference between a criminal and a sinner. A criminal is someone who breaks man's laws. A sinner is someone who breaks God's law. Breaking God's law is evil.
It is a choice each of us must make. What are we willing to do to survive. I am not perfect - but I do know hunger as I once lived in great poverty. In those times I never stole anyone's food. And I never did anything against my conscience just to be satiated.
Now if I who is so imperfect could keep this standard I am sure there are many more who would rather choose death than be part of a gang, for example. And there are many who have lost their lives doing so.
Corthos
Great Old One
In the US, we have a particularly nasty prison system... It has been getting worse and worse for years, and yet, more and more people are violating the law and being sentenced...
There is a point when fear mongering actually becomes counter productive. Towards the end of my Christian faith I stopped caring about hell, and didn't give a damn if I would go or not. Instead of trying to intimidate people into doing the right thing, it is FAR more effective to give them tools to better themselves, to give them a positive environment they can grow, and to effectively try to rehabilitate and educate people when they DO fall, IMO.
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Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
That is funny. What I was pointing out that we are compelled by circumstances and can never take all in consideration. You missed it all. Free-will does not work at all times.
Many people do not steal, not because of any fear, but because they have been trained that way from the childhood that it is a detestable thing to do in society (Samskaras*). But even then, some turn out to be compulsive thieves.
* In the context of karma theory, Sanskara are dispositions, character or behavioral traits, that exist as default from birth or prepared and perfected by a person over one's lifetime, that exist as imprints on the subconscious according to various schools of Hindu philosophy such as the Yoga school. These perfected or default imprints of karma within a person, influences that person's nature, response and states of mind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara_(rite_of_passage)
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You sure have a hard time following my line of thought.
Repression is not educative, be it in the form of a penal system or of an afterlife belief.
Heavens forbid, no, most are not. Kardecists are however a prime example of how destructive afiterlife beliefs are when unchecked.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
My point: How far will you give your charity (giving your prized possesions to another) before you think of yourself first before another?
Once you think of yourself before another, that is the end of the charity line.
In Christianity, death is very important. They teach that the only way you can have life is through the death and resurrection of Christ. People have given up their lives for their faith. Islam included. They
give up their money.
give up their lives.
However, if someone said that if you turn from God then we will let your son live, they would not
give up their religion.
In charity, there is no clause "God will protect my child when I turn away".
There are no expectations or a "I don't have to worry" about it.
There are no safety nets in charity.
When people do charity in their religion, they are putting others before themselves. Where is that limit to where they put themselves over others?
I only know three religions. All religions I assume value life. Not all religions place life as their highest tenant. Some sacrifice life (animals, for example) for ritual. Christianity teaches to sacrifice oneself in order to be resurrected. (From Saints to Jesus) I'm guessing Islam teachings obedience to Allah to the point of death (in healthy terms). I don't know about Judaism.
I have never heard of a Buddhist giving up his life to follow the Buddha. That is a complete contradition of the Buddha's teachings. That just doesn't make sense to what the Buddha actually taught. Also, because I am a Buddhist and that is my worldview, I can't make sense of others who use death as a means of life. Even paganism doesn't use death to give life. They offer what their god/s want and it could be anything they personally hold dear or what their god/s ask for.
Alot of religions use sacrifice (giving up a life at the expense of another person's goal. Scapegoating) as part of their religion. That is not a bad thing as long as it is healthy.
I havet heard many people who would risk their lives for another but not turn away from god for another.
Their religion is their life so...
If they can do that, why can't they their religion?
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Draka
Wonder Woman
Okay, this thread, this whole question, has had me lost. I cannot see how someone could, on a whim, give up their religion, their beliefs, for any reason no matter how honorable. You bring up people leaving their religion to "find the truth", but that indicates that they are lacking a feeling of "truth" from the religion they are in and have lost belief in it. If one believes something, they believe it. They are convinced of it. From teachings, experiences, and so on, they are psychologically convinced of something. One cannot ever simply choose to not hold a certain belief/religion anymore and it be honest. It would be a lie, as @Smart_Guy already eluded to having to say. If you believe that jazz music is atrocious you cannot simply choose, on mere whim, because someone asks you to, to suddenly love jazz music. If one believes the colors in the sky at sunset are breathtakingly beautiful you cannot make them just decide they are the ugliest things they have ever seen. If you believe in something, truly believe it, there are reasons that have brought you to believing it and unless you chip away at every single reason they have for believing you cannot get them to not believe simply by telling them to do so.
Frankly, the whole premise of having to give up, as if it is a ratty doll to chuck away, one's religion/belief in order to save someone's life is something I find ludicrous. One is not being selfish by saying "no" to this absurd question, one is merely being honest. Anyone who says they could or would "give up" their religion/belief to save a life is lying to look self-sacrificing. Either that or they really don't honestly believe what they profess to in the first place.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I will recomment. What I mean is people do, in my personal opinion, leave their faith for many reasons. That does not mean they didn't believe in the first place. It just means they are able to let go of their faith for whatever reason. That is extremely hard to do; and, it is possible.
I summed up my point in another thread: All religions value life. Not all see "getting or living life" the same way. Christianity, for example, depends on the death and resurrection of Christ in order to be saved. Some religions require animal sacrifice. The only religions I can think of that death isn't a part of life is Buddhism since not killing is th first commandment and some parts of paganism where pagans offer things or whatever to their god/s without needing to take a life to do so.
I feel religion is a person's life. However, I know people leave their religions all the time. If they can leave their religion for any reason, they should be able to to save a life.
Why not others?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Using music as an example.
I'm asking if you can give up your life for another, why not your love for music?
How is your life different from the religion you practice?
Thanda
Well-Known Member
In the US, we have a particularly nasty prison system... It has been getting worse and worse for years, and yet, more and more people are violating the law and being sentenced...
There is a point when fear mongering actually becomes counter productive. Towards the end of my Christian faith I stopped caring about hell, and didn't give a damn if I would go or not. Instead of trying to intimidate people into doing the right thing, it is FAR more effective to give them tools to better themselves, to give them a positive environment they can grow, and to effectively try to rehabilitate and educate people when they DO fall, IMO.
The prison system fails because it is simply a flawed system. But in the end it is a known fact that there has to be a punishment or penalties for breaking a law. E.g. do you also contend that it is counter productive to expect companies to pay for damages when they pollute the environment?
Thanda
Well-Known Member
But hell is not a place where we are educated. It is the place where we go and because we couldn't make it into heaven. This life here on Earth is our time for education. Hell is there for us to know that if we fail to learn we will go there.
E.g. homelessness is a threat that hangs over any person who is unwilling work to earn a living. Homelessness is not repressive, neither is hell - it is reality.
Then your example was quite lost on me I'm afraid, we don't all use the afterlife to teach primarily about hell.
I see.
I can tell you firsthand that people who lend too much importance to afterlife beliefs nearly always fall prey to the trap of just knowing that they have earned a good afterlife already and the people they dislike will end up sorry for being so "stubborn".
It is not just self-justification unleashed, it is also under the guise of spiritually justified judgement.
Those people are like the plague here in Brazil, where so many people sympathise with the poisonous, lazy doctrine of one Rivail, adopted name Allan Kardec.
Draka
Wonder Woman
Your life is yours to give or take, you have control over that. You, however, do NOT have control over what you believe. Belief is NOT a choice. Your likes, dislikes, beliefs, tastes,...these things are determined by our experiences, our thought processes, our brains, even our emotions, but not by conscience choice. I could not choose not to love music anymore than I could choose to no longer need to breathe. It is a part of me. Who I am. Myself, my brain, my thoughts, my feelings. I can't shut off thinking. Feeling. I may be able to give my actual life for another, throw myself over my child to protect them from fire or run in front of a vehicle to push someone out of the way and get myself hit instead, those are physical things I can do. Choices I can make with MY BODY. I cannot choose, on any whim, no matter the motive, to change the very basic way I think and interpret the world around me. No one can.
Draka
Wonder Woman
This is addressed in my previous post and with what I said earlier. If someone leaves their religion, abandons their faith, it is because whatever it was that was convincing them of that belief is no longer there. Their reasons have been questioned. Their foundation cracked. Without said degradation in their reasoning ability that brought them to such belief then they would not leave said religion. You cannot "shut off" belief. If I asked you to "give up" believing in gravity could you? Could you "give up" believing that you are a woman? Could you "give up" believing that you exist at all? If I said I'd give you your favorite meal ever in exchange for stopping believing that the sky is blue could you, at the flip of a switch, start believing that it was actually orange? Would you see orange? Or would you still know inside, believe without doubt, that the sky was blue?
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
That is what I am saying: How can you tell the difference between your life and the belief you practice?
They are interconnected. That is my belief.
However, many people have left their religion for whatever reason. If it were a part of them they would not be able to leave it no more than I can say my mother is not my mother. However, when we grow older, our preferences (likes and dislikes) changes over time. What music I loved before may not be the music I love now. So, that is not a part of me. What is a part of me cannot change; they, mature. It's a constant flow. Nothing is static. Beliefs are no different.
If I were Christian and someone said "turn away from god or give me your child", coming from your post, you'd probably tell that person "that's impossible".
I'd think, of course I can. That does not mean I don't believe god exist. It means I made a choice to turn away from god (which people do all the time) to save my child. If I can do that, why cant others?I'm not asking people to disbelief. I'm asking people to turn away. The former is not a choice for some people and it is for others. The latter is a choice unless someone is forced.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Abandoned, reject, turn from are not shutting of your belief it is walking away from it. I'm not asking people to not believe in god (for example). I'm asking if they can turn away from their belief (give it up) to save another human being.
Example: The Dharma is a part of me. I cant change that. However, my choice to follow the Dharma is a choice. If someone said "stop believing in the Dharma or your child gets it" I cannot. If someone says "give up your faith in the Dharma and your child gets it" I can. People change beliefs all the time. Why not to save another human being?
I also don't believe people who change beliefs means their foundation is crackled. They are maturing in their real self. Who they are. Whether they are atheist or Hindu, it does not matter. Buddha-nature/true self has no labels. You can't change from one thing to another. There is no religion.
In my OP, I am asking people to abandon their religion not their belief to save another. People are mixing up the two.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Guys: I am not asking you to not believe what you believe. That's impossible. I'm asking you will you turn away from your belief/religion/practice to save another human being. People turn away from religions all the time. There is nothing wrong with their line of thinking; if anything, they are maturing in their true-self. If we don't realize that we change when we grow older and our beliefs are not static as what we believe as a teen can change as an elder, then we are stuck in a box.
I am asking if you can step out of that box in order to save another human being.
I am asking if you can step out of that box in order to save another human being.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
@Draka
Best and short way I can put. Let's use music again.
I am asking, can you turn the music off to save another human being?
not
Can you just stop loving music to save another human being?
Give up music, abandon, turn it off, turn away, etc are actions that we choose to do. People do it all the time. It is not because of a broken foundation.
Why are people mixing up the two?
Best and short way I can put. Let's use music again.
I am asking, can you turn the music off to save another human being?
not
Can you just stop loving music to save another human being?
Give up music, abandon, turn it off, turn away, etc are actions that we choose to do. People do it all the time. It is not because of a broken foundation.
Why are people mixing up the two?