Poll: Should homosexuals be chaste?

[Darkstorn]

Yeah, I know but my post still stands. Spartans were a bunch of brutal proto-fascists who would murder helots as part of their military training, so I guess a step forward in one area is two steps back in another. Generally women had more opportunities in the Middle Ages than in ancient Greece.

You should read my edit. I disagree that being a religious icon is "more opportunities" than "ruling the most influential city-state in the entire world."

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You should read my edit. I disagree that being a religious icon is "more opportunities" than "ruling the most influential city-state in the entire world."

I'm talking about women in general, not just what some royals and wealthy upper class people could do. Joan of Arc was a peasant and still was able to accomplish what she did. I cannot find an example like that from ancient Greece. Ergo, Medieval women of all classes had more opportunities than women of most or all classes in ancient Greece.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

do you think the same applies to terms like bisexual or gay?

Women call each other girlfriends when men dont call each other boyfriends. Its more common to hear that women became gay because of bad experiences than it is with men.

It's cultural not part of human nature. I read about people overseas in some cultures men are affectionate with other men-holding hands, hugs, probably kisses on cheek (I don't know). Americans value personal space. However, both parties would most likely know they are not gay just affectionate (depending on the culture not their sex). That's why people in the states, to men, wouldn't call themselves boyfriends as women would (though I only hear women do that sometimes).

Those women (and men) who have bad experiences with men (or women) probably choose to "date" other women but their sexual attraction may be suppressed because of trauma not
changed because they choose to date women (or vis versa) because of their trauma. It depends on whether they were born straight or gay before the trauma not because of the trauma itself.

 

[Skywalker]

Sodom and Gomorrah supposedly pre-date Latin. But doesn't matter, the word "sodomy" is actually church Latin, from the 4th century. I.E It's a 1600-year old word. The supposed events in question happened much earlier than that, supposedly.

Since the word sodomy sounds sexual, I dont think it originates from Sodom and Gommorah. Sapphist isnt used as commonly as lesbian even though they both have to do with the same island in Greece.

 

[Skywalker]

Their physiology is the same. Affectionate and sexual attraction (marital, platonic, etc) are all different. People's physiological "response" to people they are physically (not affectionately) sexually attracted to other people.

I'm talking about physical attraction not affection. John and Sandy both have physiological responses to other people as sexual and evolutionary human beings. That's their hardwire.

Regardless of who is more affectionate than another, they are "programed" the same: with the physiological response (erection and all that) to whom they are attracted. We're not attracted "like that" to those we are affectionate with (two girl friends, two men hug each other, say outside the States are still gay, straight, bi regardless of how much they snuggle together).

Sexuality (in regards to heterosexual/homosexual/bisexual/etc) is not speaking of affection and how women are more affectionate than men. It's specifically about one's physiological sexual response to men, women, or both. It starts to be pronounced in puberty and solidified when we mature as adults. People know they are straight, gay, bisexual before they are sexually and/or affectionate with anyone.

So, heterosexuals, homosexuals, bisexuals, et cetera cannot change their born evolutionary response to the people they are attracted (not affectionate) with. Affectionate isn't sexual attraction. Platonic relationships aren't based on sexual attraction either.

The reason two women can cuddle and be affectionate with each other and still be straight is they know for themselves their inherent, physiological, and psychological attraction are geared towards men regardless what they do together.

Men friends arent called guy friends. They dont cuddle like women do. Both men and women in Italy walk arm in arm. People don't know that they are lesbian before they are sexual or affectionate with anyone because women don't have a high sex drive like men do, that exist in the form of homosexuality.

 

[Skywalker]

It's cultural not part of human nature. I read about people overseas in some cultures men are affectionate with other men-holding hands, hugs, probably kisses on cheek (I don't know). Americans value personal space. However, both parties would most likely know they are not gay just affectionate (depending on the culture not their sex). That's why people in the states, to men, wouldn't call themselves boyfriends as women would (though I only hear women do that sometimes).

Those women (and men) who have bad experiences with men (or women) probably choose to "date" other women but their sexual attraction may be suppressed because of trauma not
changed because they choose to date women (or vis versa) because of their trauma. It depends on whether they were born straight or gay before the trauma not because of the trauma itself.

What do you mean Americans value personal space?

Those women aren't gay they are bisexual or lesbian.

 

[Darkstorn]

I'm talking about women in general, not just what some royals and wealthy upper class people could do. Joan of Arc was a peasant and still was able to accomplish what she did. I cannot find an example like that from ancient Greece. Ergo, Medieval women of all classes had more opportunities than women of most or all classes in ancient Greece.

But i don't count being a religious icon as "opportunity." She claimed to have visions of the French king(which there were none at the time) driving the English out. This was politically a great opportunity for the Dauphin, not Joan of Arc. She was given a suit of armor and a horse. She had no military experience, or even basic education of any kind. She simply managed to convince a lot of people around her of her divine mission. And then people followed her.

She ended up dying for it, and the Dauphin got what he wanted. Sure, she's extremely influential, and became one of the most famous people in the world. But i'd be very wary of calling it "opportunity." I'd even say it was a form of luck, though not of the good kind. She died very young for her visions of French nationalism. Which was abused to the full extent by both the English and the French.

/E: While Aspasia was probably from a rich family, which would mean she could afford proper education, her being in control of the entire city-state had probably nothing to do with her wealth specifically. Her name is not actually her name at all, but a descriptive title she adopted herself later. She apparently had absolutely no trouble getting the attention of men, which is probably why a weak ruler like Perikles proved the perfect opportunity: She was politically the most influential person in the entire city state, and held absolute control.

 

[Darkstorn]

Since the word sodomy sounds sexual, I dont think it originates from Sodom and Gommorah. Sapphist isnt used as commonly as lesbian even though they both have to do with the same island in Greece.

"sounds sexual?"

Hate to break it to you, but if you feel something "sounds" a certain way, it's a thing happening inside your brain. Not mine or anyone else's.

But i'm fairly sure etymologically the words are related. It didn't just appear out of thin air.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

But i don't count being a religious icon as "opportunity." She claimed to have visions of the French king(which there were none at the time) driving the English out. This was politically a great opportunity for the Dauphin, not Joan of Arc. She was given a suit of armor and a horse. She had no military experience, or even basic education of any kind. She simply managed to convince a lot of people around her of her divine mission. And then people followed her.

She ended up dying for it, and the Dauphin got what he wanted. Sure, she's extremely influential, and became one of the most famous people in the world. But i'd be very wary of calling it "opportunity." I'd even say it was a form of luck, though not of the good kind. She died very young for her visions of French nationalism. Which was abused to the full extent by both the English and the French.

/E: While Aspasia was probably from a rich family, which would mean she could afford proper education, her being in control of the entire city-state had probably nothing to do with her wealth specifically. Her name is not actually her name at all, but a descriptive title she adopted herself later. She apparently had absolutely no trouble getting the attention of men, which is probably why a weak ruler like Perikles proved the perfect opportunity: She was politically the most influential person in the entire city state, and held absolute control.

This is all beside the point (Joan is way more than just a religious icon, by the way). There's still no equivalent of a lower class woman achieving such things in all of ancient Greek history. And that was just an example. The end.

 

[Darkstorn]

This is all beside the point. There's still no equivalent of a lower class woman achieving such things in all of ancient Greek history. And that was just an example. The end.

Define "such things." If it's just "becoming exactly like Joan of Arc" then you are 100% correct.

But things aren't THAT equivalent to begin with: There was no French nationalism or Christianity in ancient Greece. Only being at the right time, in the right place, and being the right type of person(someone who claims to have seen a vision of the English being driven out of France) AND being around the right type of people(the Dauphin, who wanted to legitimize his rule, even though his claim was inferior to even the English king) gave her the "opportunity" to die for the sake of her political superiors.

Sure, Aspasia couldn't have done that. Note: She couldn't have done that even if she was poor. Or uneducated. Or German for that matter.

I think you're being too specific when you want me to find someone we can equate to Joan of Arc. I personally think she's a one-of-a-kind. But to talk about dying young because of political machinations = opportunity????

How?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

What do you mean Americans value personal space?

Those women aren't gay they are bisexual or lesbian.

Some lesbians refer to themselves as gay women. It's a personal preference not a technicality.

Many Americans tend to have a full arms length or more from strangers and acquaintances. Here is a brief on it

15 minute video brief on American culture. It's the first fifteen seconds. There is info on it but most seem to be biased against Americans.

In some countries, close contact is normal. In America, the closer you get, the more personal relationship you need to be with the person you're standing next to. The closer, the more personal. The more personal means trust.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Define "such things." If it's just "becoming exactly like Joan of Arc" then you are 100% correct.

But things aren't THAT equivalent to begin with: There was no French nationalism or Christianity in ancient Greece. Only being at the right time, in the right place, and being the right type of person(someone who claims to have seen a vision of the English being driven out of France) AND being around the right type of people(the Dauphin, who wanted to legitimize his rule, even though his claim was inferior to even the English king) gave her the "opportunity" to die for the sake of her political superiors.

Sure, Aspasia couldn't have done that. Note: She couldn't have done that even if she was poor. Or uneducated. Or German for that matter.

I think you're being too specific when you want me to find someone we can equate to Joan of Arc. I personally think she's a one-of-a-kind. But to talk about dying young because of political machinations = opportunity????

How?

I'm talking about women in a given culture having the leeway to make an impact on their society in general and become prominent in their own right, and it's apparent that women had more social opprtunity to do that in Medieval Europe than in Ancient Greece. Joan of Arc was just an example but I can name queens if that's what you want.

 

[Darkstorn]

I'm talking about women in a given culture having the leeway to make an impact on their society in general and become prominent in their own right, and it's apparent that women had more social opprtunity to do that in Medieval Europe than in Ancient Greece. Joan of Arc was just an example but I can name queens if that's what you want.

It's still not apparent to me, so yeah you might want some more examples, and even more, explanations. I still don't believe Joan had any opportunities except to die young due to terrible luck and bad political motivations of people who controlled her.

It's a cop out to declare something is "apparent." That's what theists do.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Men friends arent called guy friends. They dont cuddle like women do. Both men and women in Italy walk arm in arm. People don't know that they are lesbian before they are sexual or affectionate with anyone because women don't have a high sex drive like men do, that exist in the form of homosexuality.

Depends on the culture. In some countries women walking arm to arm has nothing to do with their sexuality. Women in the states would not go arm to arm unless they know each other well, most likely younger, family members, or so have you Rarely to do specifically with their sexuality.

You won't be able to know if a person is gay or straight, lesbian or bi if they are kissing or holding hands with the same or opposite gender. The only way you can know is to ask them.

High sex drive is not related to the sex a person is attracted to. People get excited just from waking up in bed or having a dream. Our body responses aren't chosen. Behaviors are.

Homosexuality, heterosexuality, etc just refers to the sex a person is attracted in relation to oneself not the nature of attraction itself (high, low, puppy love, marital, etc)

 

[Skywalker]

Depends on the culture. In some countries women walking arm to arm has nothing to do with their sexuality. Women in the states would not go arm to arm unless they know each other well, most likely younger, family members, or so have you Rarely to do specifically with their sexuality.

You won't be able to know if a person is gay or straight, lesbian or bi if they are kissing or holding hands with the same or opposite gender. The only way you can know is to ask them.

High sex drive is not related to the sex a person is attracted to. People get excited just from waking up in bed or having a dream. Our body responses aren't chosen. Behaviors are. Homosexuality just refers to the sex a person is attracted to not the nature of attraction itself (high, low, puppy love, marital, etc)

High sex drive is related to the possibility of being born with estrogen or androgen that is typical of the opposite gender.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

It's still not apparent to me, so yeah you might want some more examples, and even more, explanations. I still don't believe Joan had any opportunities except to die young due to terrible luck and bad political motivations of people who controlled her.

It's a cop out to declare something is "apparent." That's what theists do.

Dude, I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion if you're going to resort to lame insults. You're so stuck on Joan that you're ignoring my actual point.

You can compare with these articles: Women in the Middle Ages
Women in Ancient Greece

 

[Darkstorn]

Dude, I'm not really interested in continuing this discussion if you're going to resort to lame insults. You're so stuck on Joan that you're ignoring my actual point.

I'm not. I just don't agree with your other points either. Which i have already explained.

Whereas you are ignoring most of my points.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm not. I just don't agree with your other points either. Which i have already explained.

Whereas you are ignoring most of my points.

Whatever.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

High sex drive is related to the possibility of being born with estrogen or androgen that is typical of the opposite gender.

But who they are attracted to is besides the point of the differences in estrogen between both parties. The object of attraction is irrelevant to the physiology of the attraction itself.

The problem is believers determining one's attraction as "normal or abnormal" based on the person with whom one is attracted not the nature of the physiological response itself regardless the object of attraction.

 

[Darkstorn]

Whatever.

Well this was way more boring than expected...