Poll: Signs of eloquence of Quran

[lewisnotmiller]

@Link

Suppose for a moment the eloquence of the Qur'an is divine. That would be the original text, memorised by Mohammed (PBUH) and transcribed in Arabic.

You have no reason to suppose English translations maintain their divine eloquence, do you?

 

[Link]

@Link

Suppose for a moment the eloquence of the Qur'an is divine. That would be the original text, memorised by Mohammed (PBUH) and transcribed in Arabic.

You have no reason to suppose English translations maintain their divine eloquence, do you?

Salam

There's still a lot to see even in translations as imperfect as they are. The things I showed in the signs of eloquence don't need you know Arabic to appreciate.

A lot, even most of it, get's lost when not in Arabic, but there's still signs to see that it's from God in the translations.

 

[firedragon]

My latest post in the thread where I'm trying to show eloquence of Quran and signs of it being from God in that respect.

I wrote:

Salam

What does this have to do with eloquence? One way to define eloquence, is to talk about words picked in a way that are very well placed with respect to one another. That out of the words picked as there are many ways to say the same thing, the choice of words are very well chosen.

Now with respect to the reward verses, I believe I have not only shown they are well chosen (eloquent) with respect to the Surahs, and that they fit there more then others, but that they are perfectly chosen words. That these words with respect to the Surahs they are in, are perfectly placed words.

Now humans are not going to do this. They are not going to repeat same message of verses, but paraphrased differently or with additions, that are perfectly suited exactly where they are.

Keep in mind that Surahs were dynamically built over time, and that the Quran surahs were not revealed in one go, this is another major sign.

To be this precise and calculative with picking these words is a major sign. Out of the reward verses, one stands unique however, and that's 42:23.

Yet as it's explicit it's the family of Mohammad (s), the Surah more then any other Surah, emphasizes Islam is not about Mohammad (s) or his family (a) but they are chosen means for God's Welayah on his creation and he has a unique Welayah. He sent Mohammad (s) because of this Welayah he has. He sent Messengers in the past because of this Welayah.

He distinguishes who he wants for himself and guides who he wishes.

The Surah is so calculatedly related to the issue "it's about Mohammad (s) but not really, it's about God Welayah through Mohammad (S)".

And this is why when it mentions the Al-Qurba in 42:23 it does so after mentioned "faith and good actions" and after mentions "whoever earns goodness, we will increase them therein in it's beauty" and emphasizing "indeed God is forgiving, thankful", but what is most eloquent is the verse right after with all this...

أَمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا ۖ فَإِنْ يَشَإِ اللَّهُ يَخْتِمْ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ ۗ وَيَمْحُ اللَّهُ الْبَاطِلَ وَيُحِقُّ الْحَقَّ بِكَلِمَاتِهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ | Do they say, ‘He has fabricated a lie against Allah’? If so, should Allah wish He would set a seal on your heart, and Allah will efface the falsehood and confirm the truth with His words. Indeed He knows well what is in the breasts. | Ash-Shura : 24


This shows, if not Mohammad (s), someone else, if not his Ahlulbayt (a), then another Ahlulbayt (a), and so don't make it personal about Mohammad (s).

It's about God and his Welayat. We see this theme in another Surahs, for example, Surah Furqan emphasizes on Mohammad (s) being the way to God and the reward he is accused of seeking to be in reality for who wants to, to take path to their Lord.

But this Surah has the most "it's about God, so don't make it personal".

It also has "there is no argument between us and you, to you is your actions and to us is our actions", and so to let the truth prevail, and let everyone present their religion and not make it personal.

Of course, God distinguishes for himself who he wishes, and Al-Qurba in 42:23 are obviously the center point of the message, and are the means to God, but it's not about them, because if not them, and Mohammad (S) lied, then a different Al-Qurba would be the object.

Al-Qurba is also stated in a way, that no matter what time and age, there is always an Al-Qurba to love and earn goodness through and are means to God and his signs, and way to believe in God's light and do good.

The ending of Surah Shura also very eloquent....it talks about God guiding through the spirit he inspired/revealed from his command, and that it's a light who he guides who he wants, but then says "...and indeed you guide to a straight path"

And we read in Surah Fatiha "the path of those who you favored upon..." but here we read "the path of God..." and ends with "alas to God return the affairs"

This too good. Too good for humans to calculate and place. And 42:23 stands unique and yet is explained by all the reward verses which are all perfectly placed and related to their Surahs. They interpret each other and woven each other to imply one meaning.

This way of Quranic interpreting itself and relating it's repeated themes to one another, is not a sign of boring repetition, but actually, it's a sign of calculating words to perfection from God. And nothing is repeated in vain.

It's very calculative repetition in a way, that things get woven together and interpret one another. We see for example in repeating the reward and how it's calculated to be in a Surah perfectly, is a miracle. Everything so precisely placed.

We also saw the names of Prophets and Messengers and how they appear and which order, in the Surahs, they appear, is also very precise and perfectly chosen words.

Again, eloquence can be said to measure the degree of how words are chosen out of all words. I believe I've objectively shown a lot of examples of how words are not just exalted and high in eloquence, that they are very good placement of words and hence eloquent, but they are precisely chosen in a subtle way humans do not know how to choose,

Keeping in mind Quran was dynamically revealed with events and the Sunnah, this perfectly placed words should be seen as a miracle for sure.

------

My comment. Pick the best option for you. I realize some options you can select more then once, but just pick the best one.

Your poll will give you arbitrary opinions only. It will all be bias. But I'm sure you know that.

 

[firedragon]

@Link

Suppose for a moment the eloquence of the Qur'an is divine. That would be the original text, memorised by Mohammed (PBUH) and transcribed in Arabic.

You have no reason to suppose English translations maintain their divine eloquence, do you?

If I may?

You are right. Eloquence is a particular study. It's called Ilme Balaga. It can only be analysed in Arabic. For example, take an old English poem that rhymes. And if it's a long poem the tone changes when needed. The voice changes when needed. When you translate it to lets say another language like Arabic, can we maintain the same writers style that you got in English? It's absolutely difficult. I don't know how you could do it really.

Eloquence in the Arabic poetry and writing style of the Qur'an is not what we will think of when someone says the word Eloquence. We tend to think too simplistically.

Nevertheless, you are right. English translations do not maintain the eloquence. A translator can try his levels best to try and "maintain" the eloquence, but that will turn into a weird poetic writeup, not a translation. I don't think it's possible.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I brought up Bahai example. It claims writing is proof from God and beyond our capability. It's a claim trying to mimic Islam's claim. Yet, it's not even at the level of eloquence. I've mentioned why. If you want I can show examples too, how it fails in eloquence. I can provide detailed thread show examples of chaotic uncalculated speech and it's too much to even begin to compare with Quran. It has no comparison.

Yet to you, it's simply the claim.

The claim does not make it true. The claim is just an invitation to study it and see if it's beyond human capability or not.

I believe with how much hostility the unseen realm (dark magic) and seen realm has towards Quran, if this challenge is seriously met, we would have some serious testimony about it.

As for your examples (Musalyma, etc), we can look at their literature and compare. If you don't want to start a thread about, I can. I didn't reply to it in the other thread, because it was saying challenge is met. Not that the challenge itself is not a reasonable challenge.

You have to decide between these two in the first place.

Is God capable of providing a sign?

If so, in what form? Just physical power miracles or is a literature possible something God can use a proof?

If you say it's impossible, then no matter what level of eloquence and how precise, you are going to say, so what?

But if you believe highest literature and incapability of bringing like it, and that God provide proof through literature, then we can have a meaningful dialogue of how Quran towers.

I think even if you are stuck on one, you should just skip to seeing examples of eloquence of Quran, because for all you know, God can speak in a way far above humans and you can detect some of that eloquence and see how it towers above in precise perfectly placed words.

The more I read the Holy Quran the more I am overwhelmed by its beauty and truth. But what is more important to me is that it is from God and I see the exact same truth in the Words of Baha’u’llah. If I were to deny Baha’u’llah I would have to deny Muhammad and the Quran because to me they are One and the same, all from the one God.

Of course, the Message from God today will be different but also a test to those who claim to be true believers. That is why if eloquence is being used to judge God’s Words then if God sends a Message which is not eloquent then we reject it? No, we should accept everything God sends to us unconditionally.

This is the test on the day of judgement. Some expect eloquence, others expect Christ to come riding on clouds. And when these expectations are not met, then people disbelieve and turn away from God.

That is your test and for you to pass or not.

Sura 29:2

Do people think they will be left alone after saying ‘We believe’ without being put to the test?

 

[firedragon]

The more I read the Holy Quran the more I am overwhelmed by its beauty and truth. But what is more important to me is that it is from God and I see the exact same truth in the Words of Baha’u’llah. If I were to deny Baha’u’llah I would have to deny Muhammad and the Quran because to me they are One and the same, all from the one God.

Have you read the Qayoom al asma of the bab? Have you done some research on the linguistics and compared it with the Qur'an? That being a claimed superimposition of the same eloquence of the Qur'an, thus I ask.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If I may?

You are right. Eloquence is a particular study. It's called Ilme Balaga. It can only be analysed in Arabic. For example, take an old English poem that rhymes. And if it's a long poem the tone changes when needed. The voice changes when needed. When you translate it to lets say another language like Arabic, can we maintain the same writers style that you got in English? It's absolutely difficult. I don't know how you could do it really.

Eloquence in the Arabic poetry and writing style of the Qur'an is not what we will think of when someone says the word Eloquence. We tend to think too simplistically.

Nevertheless, you are right. English translations do not maintain the eloquence. A translator can try his levels best to try and "maintain" the eloquence, but that will turn into a weird poetic writeup, not a translation. I don't think it's possible.

Thanks for the extrapolation, I appreciate the clarity.
That's kinda what I figured. Even a really good translator is putting a level of human intervention and fallibility between the original text and the translated version.

For that reason I answered 'I don't know'. As an atheist, my assumption would always be that at best they were written by one or more eloquent humans. But I can't judge the original text, so that seems the appropriate answer.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Have you read the Qayoom al asma of the bab? Have you done some research on the linguistics and compared it with the Qur'an? That being a claimed superimposition of the same eloquence of the Qur'an, thus I ask.

I only know that the more I read the Quran the more I love it and the same with the Holy Words of all God’s Messengers.

 

[firedragon]

Thanks for the extrapolation, I appreciate the clarity.
That's kinda what I figured. Even a really good translator is putting a level of human intervention and fallibility between the original text and the translated version.

For that reason I answered 'I don't know'. As an atheist, my assumption would always be that at best they were written by one or more eloquent humans. But I can't judge the original text, so that seems the appropriate answer.

I understand.

 

[rational experiences]

In human life.

For thousands of years each of us born a baby.

We become an adult. We are first mutual a member of the human race.

We are innate aware naturally without discussion. Aware of self survival and nature's remedies.

We are aware of both good and evil ourselves.

We own the belief as just a human first.

Hence I challenge your belief as you can challenge my belief. As we're all just humans.

So if you choose a topic and claim the God that is good. It would not be evil not know evil as it could not move beyond its own hierarchy.

Why I believe a human should not claim their thoughts better than someone else. Yet in human behaviour they do.

If we are all created equally. There hence can never be a human argument at all.

 

[firedragon]

I only know that the more I read the Quran the more I love it and the same with the Holy Words of all God’s Messengers.

I ask because the topic is very specific. It's the luhaweeyun or the study of language and writing. It's the Ilme Balagha or the study of the so called "eloquence". Not about "love" or preaching.

If anyone spends some time studying the Qur'an, the Bab's writings and Bahailah's writings, they are poles apart. can never be matched. No way. I am sorry but trying to bring in Bahai writings into the same picture is just a vain attempt.

If a Jew has a thread on a similar topic on the Jewish writings, I will say "I have no clue because I am absolutely ignorant of the linguistic beauty of the Hebrew writings". That is the honest response. I will not try to bring the Qur'an into that equation and hitch a ride. The day I make that study of the Hebrew language to "that level", I will make some analysis. And for me to educate myself on the Hebrew language to "that level", it might take me 7 years of full time study. I don't know I am speculating. Maybe more.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I ask because the topic is very specific. It's the luhaweeyun or the study of language and writing. It's the Ilme Balagha or the study of the so called "eloquence". Not about "love" or preaching.

If anyone spends some time studying the Qur'an, the Bab's writings and Bahailah's writings, they are poles apart. can never be matched. No way. I am sorry but trying to bring in Bahai writings into the same picture is just a vain attempt.

If a Jew has a thread on a similar topic on the Jewish writings, I will say "I have no clue because I am absolutely ignorant of the linguistic beauty of the Hebrew writings". That is the honest response. I will not try to bring the Qur'an into that equation and hitch a ride. The day I make that study of the Hebrew language to "that level", I will make some analysis. And for me to educate myself on the Hebrew language to "that level", it might take me 7 years of full time study. I don't know I am speculating. Maybe more.

I remember the very first time I read the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah. I hardly understood a word but it was like reading a song. It had a most beautiful melody and blending of words that is inexplicable. A beauty, a majesty, a song. It was like riding the words as if waves on an ocean. The perfection was just so clear to me that it was God’s Word not any mortal man’s.

The other Writings of His I feel the same melodic harmony and perfection in the context and relevancy for this age. It was through Baha’u’llah’s Words I came to read the Quran and it is so addictive. I feel so much hunger spiritually to read and understand more and to me the Quran has a matchless beauty that makes it undoubtedly the Word of God.

But in my soul I feel the same beauty and perfection in both the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the Quran after years of reading. The Bab the same. They each have Their own style but to me it is different styles of perfection. That is, the Word of God revealed in different contexts for different purposes but all perfection.

Whether they meet any human standards of grammar etc is irrelevant to me with regards to ascertaining truth. If God gives me a sweet melon or a sour grape it’s the same to me because it is from God so I accept gracefully, gratefully and humbly as His servant.

 

[rational experiences]

As humans are in the experience as the writings depict.

An analogy would quote my star fall conscious aware teaching very ancient was for more severe than the Baha'i. Yet we were holier then. As the Jesus attack hadn't been received.

Seeing the star mass Baha'i term was smaller and colder that returned to earth sacrificing life mind again.

I owned a stated literature of the scientific symbolism and number use. Holy teaching advices.

So the language idealism of man gaining the advice would vary.

I ask a basic question should life have been sacrificed?

The responses I've always gained from holy men was that man had done wrong yet he was innocent of original sin. Scientific clause in documents.

To a human review it's scientific reasonings as thought by a holy human man's mind changed but saved. Stated holy as natural anything is holy first.

As you write when it was accountable. No future of new change is hence stated. Yet I think the Baha'i demonstrated once again that human men are in receipt of advice.

Supportive in context.

If human minds couldn't be changed whilst living naturally they wouldn't be changed whilst living naturally.

 

[firedragon]

I remember the very first time I read the Book of Certitude by Baha’u’llah. I hardly understood a word but it was like reading a song. It had a most beautiful melody and blending of words that is inexplicable.

Some one had made it poetic in English. That's not how Bahaullah wrote it.

The other Writings of His I feel the same melodic harmony and perfection in the context and relevancy for this age. It was through Baha’u’llah’s Words I came to read the Quran and it is so addictive. I feel so much hunger spiritually to read and understand more and to me the Quran has a matchless beauty that makes it undoubtedly the Word of God.

The topic is not if anything is the word of God.

But in my soul I feel the same beauty and perfection in both the Writings of Baha’u’llah and the Quran after years of reading. The Bab the same. They each have Their own style but to me it is different styles of perfection. That is, the Word of God revealed in different contexts for different purposes but all perfection.

Whether they meet any human standards of grammar etc is irrelevant to me with regards to ascertaining truth. If God gives me a sweet melon or a sour grape it’s the same to me because it is from God so I accept gracefully, gratefully and humbly as His servant.

This is just preaching. You have not studied any of these documents. You are just preaching with lovely enticing words you think work on people. No it does not. For you to speak about human or any standards of grammar, you have to know the grammar.

This may work in your group, but not in a topic like this.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So we can compare the two, and say Quran towers above it. But you can even compare Bahai scriptures to other writing of humans, or even of Kahen channeling from Jinn, and you will see Bahai scriptures are not eloquent.

Well you did say let's not bring Baha'i into the conversation, but what you offer about the Writings of Baha'u'llah is not supported by the Muslims that Baha'u'llah gave the Revelation to.

Most were amazed at the power and elegance of the revealed verses.

Maybe you need to research this, as not to make comments that are not supported by historical records.

Here is an extract from but one occasion.

"...One of the most outstanding events of Bahá'u'lláh's sojourn in Sulaymáníyyih, which captured the hearts of the people, was the revelation in public of a poem in Arabic known as Qasídiy-i-Varqá'íyyih. The divines of Sulaymáníyyih requested Bahá'u'lláh to undertake a task, which no one had previously accomplished, of writing a poem in the same rhyme as Qasídiy-i-Tá'íyyih, one of the works of the celebrated Arabic poet Ibn-i-Fárid.

Accepting their request, Bahá'u'lláh dictated no less than two thousand verses as He sat in their midst. Amazed at such a revelation, those present were spellbound and lost in admiration at His performance. They acclaimed His verses as far superior in their beauty, lucidity and profundity to the original poem by Ibn-i-Fárid. Knowing that the subject-matter was beyond the people's comprehension, He chose one hundred and twenty-seven verses and allowed them to be copied..."

So you can see, your comments are not based on historical records, records of those that heard Baha'u'llah reveal the verses of Allah, not knowing who Baha'u'llah was.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If anyone spends some time studying the Qur'an, the Bab's writings and Bahailah's writings, they are poles apart. can never be matched. No way. I am sorry but trying to bring in Bahai writings into the same picture is just a vain attempt.

Your comments are not supported by those who heard Baha'u'llah revealed verses.

I see a dogmatic bias would be the only difference.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

Your comments are not supported by those who heard Baha'u'llah revealed verses.

I see a dogmatic bias would be the only difference.

Regards Tony

That's just ad hominem. Irrelevant. Absolutely irrelevant.

The book is there to read any day, any time. So study it, and present the Ilme Balagha in it and then, that's a relevant discussion.

 

[danieldemol]

Your poll will give you arbitrary opinions only. It will all be bias. But I'm sure you know that.

Your comments are not supported by those who heard Baha'u'llah revealed verses.

I see a dogmatic bias would be the only difference.

Regards Tony

That's just ad hominem. Irrelevant. Absolutely irrelevant.

The book is there to read any day, any time. So study it, and present the Ilme Balagha in it and then, that's a relevant discussion.

To be honest I don't see the difference between your accusations of bias and Tony's.

In my opinion.

 

[Clara Tea]

My latest post in the thread where I'm trying to show eloquence of Quran and signs of it being from God in that respect.

I wrote:

Salam

What does this have to do with eloquence? One way to define eloquence, is to talk about words picked in a way that are very well placed with respect to one another. That out of the words picked as there are many ways to say the same thing, the choice of words are very well chosen.

Now with respect to the reward verses, I believe I have not only shown they are well chosen (eloquent) with respect to the Surahs, and that they fit there more then others, but that they are perfectly chosen words. That these words with respect to the Surahs they are in, are perfectly placed words.

Now humans are not going to do this. They are not going to repeat same message of verses, but paraphrased differently or with additions, that are perfectly suited exactly where they are.

Keep in mind that Surahs were dynamically built over time, and that the Quran surahs were not revealed in one go, this is another major sign.

To be this precise and calculative with picking these words is a major sign. Out of the reward verses, one stands unique however, and that's 42:23.

Yet as it's explicit it's the family of Mohammad (s), the Surah more then any other Surah, emphasizes Islam is not about Mohammad (s) or his family (a) but they are chosen means for God's Welayah on his creation and he has a unique Welayah. He sent Mohammad (s) because of this Welayah he has. He sent Messengers in the past because of this Welayah.

He distinguishes who he wants for himself and guides who he wishes.

The Surah is so calculatedly related to the issue "it's about Mohammad (s) but not really, it's about God Welayah through Mohammad (S)".

And this is why when it mentions the Al-Qurba in 42:23 it does so after mentioned "faith and good actions" and after mentions "whoever earns goodness, we will increase them therein in it's beauty" and emphasizing "indeed God is forgiving, thankful", but what is most eloquent is the verse right after with all this...

أَمْ يَقُولُونَ افْتَرَىٰ عَلَى اللَّهِ كَذِبًا ۖ فَإِنْ يَشَإِ اللَّهُ يَخْتِمْ عَلَىٰ قَلْبِكَ ۗ وَيَمْحُ اللَّهُ الْبَاطِلَ وَيُحِقُّ الْحَقَّ بِكَلِمَاتِهِ ۚ إِنَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِذَاتِ الصُّدُورِ | Do they say, ‘He has fabricated a lie against Allah’? If so, should Allah wish He would set a seal on your heart, and Allah will efface the falsehood and confirm the truth with His words. Indeed He knows well what is in the breasts. | Ash-Shura : 24


This shows, if not Mohammad (s), someone else, if not his Ahlulbayt (a), then another Ahlulbayt (a), and so don't make it personal about Mohammad (s).

It's about God and his Welayat. We see this theme in another Surahs, for example, Surah Furqan emphasizes on Mohammad (s) being the way to God and the reward he is accused of seeking to be in reality for who wants to, to take path to their Lord.

But this Surah has the most "it's about God, so don't make it personal".

It also has "there is no argument between us and you, to you is your actions and to us is our actions", and so to let the truth prevail, and let everyone present their religion and not make it personal.

Of course, God distinguishes for himself who he wishes, and Al-Qurba in 42:23 are obviously the center point of the message, and are the means to God, but it's not about them, because if not them, and Mohammad (S) lied, then a different Al-Qurba would be the object.

Al-Qurba is also stated in a way, that no matter what time and age, there is always an Al-Qurba to love and earn goodness through and are means to God and his signs, and way to believe in God's light and do good.

The ending of Surah Shura also very eloquent....it talks about God guiding through the spirit he inspired/revealed from his command, and that it's a light who he guides who he wants, but then says "...and indeed you guide to a straight path"

And we read in Surah Fatiha "the path of those who you favored upon..." but here we read "the path of God..." and ends with "alas to God return the affairs"

This too good. Too good for humans to calculate and place. And 42:23 stands unique and yet is explained by all the reward verses which are all perfectly placed and related to their Surahs. They interpret each other and woven each other to imply one meaning.

This way of Quranic interpreting itself and relating it's repeated themes to one another, is not a sign of boring repetition, but actually, it's a sign of calculating words to perfection from God. And nothing is repeated in vain.

It's very calculative repetition in a way, that things get woven together and interpret one another. We see for example in repeating the reward and how it's calculated to be in a Surah perfectly, is a miracle. Everything so precisely placed.

We also saw the names of Prophets and Messengers and how they appear and which order, in the Surahs, they appear, is also very precise and perfectly chosen words.

Again, eloquence can be said to measure the degree of how words are chosen out of all words. I believe I've objectively shown a lot of examples of how words are not just exalted and high in eloquence, that they are very good placement of words and hence eloquent, but they are precisely chosen in a subtle way humans do not know how to choose,

Keeping in mind Quran was dynamically revealed with events and the Sunnah, this perfectly placed words should be seen as a miracle for sure.

------

My comment. Pick the best option for you. I realize some options you can select more then once, but just pick the best one.

Even an eloquent Quran can be misinterpreted. Once pricipal can be emphasized over another by cherry-picking out the things we don't want, and cherry-picking in the things that we do want. Christians over-emphasize Gays (the bible is filled with things that we are not supposed to do, so why focus on just that?). Zealot preachers (Khomeni, for example) use their religion to attack those who embarrass their religion. Khomeni issued a death threat against Solmon Rushdie for writing "Satanic Verses."

Islam: The Quran itself preaches violence against nonbelievers

According to the website above, the Quran preaches violence against non-believers.

 

[Clara Tea]

@Link

Suppose for a moment the eloquence of the Qur'an is divine. That would be the original text, memorised by Mohammed (PBUH) and transcribed in Arabic.

You have no reason to suppose English translations maintain their divine eloquence, do you?

How could the various versions (King James, etc.) of the New Testament be exactly the same, yet worded differently? That would be a miracle. As it is, the bibles have contradictions (obvious mistakes).

 

[firedragon]

To be honest I don't see the difference between your accusations of bias and Tony's.

In my opinion.

Responses to Polls will be bias in a topic like this. I will respond with bias. Every positive response to this poll will be done arbitrarily. Making assumptions Those who say I don't know, are making a direct response with what they know, the others are just arbitrary.

But when someone makes an assessment about a text, you can read any day, any time and make an analysis without making any analysis, is just arbitrary. It's fallacious to do that.

If you think I am making just statements about the Qur'an and the book Qayoom al asma written by the bab, ask me questions about both of them, and I will show you where my statement comes from. So rather than again trying to get involved in someone else's conversation just to do an ad hominem, a Tu Quoque, and start another baseless argument up and down, make it objective. Present your argument to support Tony, from both the scripture, or even the Kithab al Akdhas, point the Balagha or this so called "eloquence" in literary studies, compare and show me your data, and then that is a relevant argument.

Otherwise its just irrelevant.

Thanks.