Poll: The best argument against God, capital G.

[Zwing]

For what we call "existence" to have occurred…in the way that it has, there must have also been limitations to what was possible, or only abject chaos could have resulted.

of course there were limitations in the generation of the material universe, those resulting from the chemical and physical properties of matter, given the elements caused by the “Big Bang”.

 

[PureX]

The mind is no more than an illusion resulting from brain activity. It is not physical, and so cannot expand or contract.

It is metaphysical in that it identifies and defines "expand and contract".

Alas, I think that God will have to come all the way to me, if he wishes to meet me.

Fish, meet ocean.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

of course there were limitations in the generation of the material universe, those resulting from the chemical and physical properties of matter, given the elements caused by the “Big Bang”.

We don't know that, that happened as for the BB.

 

[PureX]

of course there were limitations in the generation of the material universe, those resulting from the chemical and physical properties of matter, given the elements caused by the “Big Bang”.

The "big bang" was an organized possibility that occurred. Whatever the source of that organized possibility was, it "pre-existed" existence as we experience and understand it. It determined that those "chemical and physical properties of matter" happened as they happened, and that everything that happened as a result of them, also happened. (And everything else that might otherwise have happened, but did not happen, didn't.)

And this is the great mystery of the existential event.

 

[John D. Brey]

If you had to choose one, and only one, argument against the God of Abraham as described in the Bible ( both Hebrew and Christian ), what would it be?

Please vote in the poll. I tried to cover all the major objections, and I'm interested to know if I missed anything.

My vote? God doesn't listen. I think that's the single best argument against God.

• No evidence? It's not really an argument against.
• Harsh / evil actions in the bible? The NT and Christian theology explains most of that stuff.
• The bible is unrealistic / fake? It doesn't bother me.
• Suffering / Starvation / Disease / Pests / Pestilence? It's a really good argument, my 2nd choice.
• No intervention against tyrants and the worst of the worst criminals. This is my 3rd choice.

Thank you in advance for your response.

...God never listens ... to what I say... and you don't get a refund ... if you over-pray...

Spoiler: lyrics

Swinging on the lifeline
Fraying bits of twine
Entangled in the remnants of the
Knot I left behind
And asking you to help me make it
Finally unwind

But God never listens to what I say
God never listens to what I say
And you don't get a refund
If you overpray

And when the line is breaking
And when I'm near the end
When all the time spent leading
I've been following instead
When all my thoughts and memories are
Left hanging by a thread

God never listens...

Stranded on this slender string
The minutes seem to last a lifetime
Dangling here between the light above
And blue below that drags me down

But God never listens to what I say
God never listens to what I say
And you don't get a refund
If you overpray

One of the things I find to be the greatness of Judaism is the concept of trusting in God without questioning or reasoning/judging the relevance of the faith. Questioning and reasoning are ok. But not where they're a prerequisite for the faith. The faith is based on something different than questioning and reasoning. It's like a Jewish atheist worrying that he might be angering God. His reasoning and objective reality doesn't see or believe in God, but his Jewish soul doesn't care that he doesn't believe.

One can only "over pray," if they're praying from a position other than prayer lishmah. Genuine prayer is a result and a product of faith, and not a test or prerequisite for faith.

The Christian mystics spoke of a dark night of the soul when God abandons the true tsaddik for a time so that his faith must, at that point, be suspend from something that doesn't exist in this body or this world. This dark night of the soul is like the final test the human soul must endure prior to something like an actual rebirth making the old man the new man (Abram become Abraham).

The song lyrics in your message are like a person experiencing the non-existence of God without the true grit to lean on the everlasting arms.

John

 

[dybmh]

Not a god then

The point is, non-physical exists in contradiction to physical.

At the very least, there could be a gap, or a seperation between the physical existence and God which is in contradiction to physical. That would be a non-physical thing which provides defintion to physical things. You spoke about this briefly using E=mc^2. And this would prohibit detection using physical instruments or observation. Unless God choses to cross over that contradiction.

So, the "only physical things exist" argument against God doesn't work without further elaboration.

 

[dybmh]

One of the things I find to be the greatness of Judaism is the concept of trusting in God without questioning or reasoning/judging the relevance of the faith. Questioning and reasoning are ok. But not where they're a prerequisite for the faith. The faith is based on something different than questioning and reasoning. It's like a Jewish atheist worrying that he might be angering God. His reasoning and objective reality doesn't see or believe in God, but his Jewish soul doesn't care that he doesn't believe.

One can only "over pray," if they're praying from a position other than prayer lishmah. Genuine prayer is a result and a product of faith, and not a test or prerequisite for faith.

The Christian mystics spoke of a dark night of the soul when God abandons the true tsaddik for a time so that his faith must, at that point, be suspend from something that doesn't exist in this body or this world. This dark night of the soul is like the final test the human soul must endure prior to something like an actual rebirth making the old man the new man (Abram become Abraham).

The song lyrics in your message are like a person experiencing the non-existence of God without the true grit to lean on the everlasting arms.

John

I love what you're saying, but, it's a tad disconnected from the thread topic. Did you vote? What is the best argument against the God of Abraham as described in the bible?

 

[ChristineM]

The point is, non-physical exists in contradiction to physical.

At the very least, there could be a gap, or a seperation between the physical existence and God which is in contradiction to physical. That would be a non-physical thing which provides defintion to physical things. You spoke about this briefly using E=mc^2. And this would prohibit detection using physical instruments or observation. Unless God choses to cross over that contradiction.

So, the "only physical things exist" argument against God doesn't work without further elaboration.

Could be? . I know many people do consider could be's but not I, once the could be's are firm "it is" i will take a look.
E=MC2 is not a could be. It is a proven relationship.

 

[PureX]

So, the "only physical things exist" argument against God doesn't work without further elaboration.

It also labels the cognitive awareness required to make that statement non-existent. Which is fundamentally incoherent.

 

[Zwing]

What is a non physical thing?

Abstractions are non physical things. They are purely conceptual. “Faithfulness”, for instance. Do abstractions “exist”? I’m not sure how to answer that, but the man who remains with and cares for his wife who develops full blown cerebral palsy has some thing that the fellow who puts his, under similar circumstances, in a nursing home and files for divorce lacks. More to @dybmh’s point, the other class of non-physical things, besides abstractions, would be spiritual things. Do these exist? I have come to answer “no” as a part of my own cosmology, but that answer differs for others.

 

[ChristineM]

Abstractions are non physical things. They are purely conceptual. “Faithfulness”, for instance.

Which takes energy to imagine.

 

[PureX]

Which takes energy to imagine.

Are you saing that existence is 'energy'? But we have no idea what energy even is. If I assert that energy is "God's will phyiscally manifesting", how could we even debate it? We have no idea what "God" is apart from a label for the mystery source of all being, and we have no idea what "energy" actually IS apart from a few descriptions of how it appears to function.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the 'existence = (expressed) energy' assertion but it doesn't really tell us anything more than the 'existence = God's will' assertion. Nor does it address the source.

 

[ChristineM]

Are you saing that existence is 'energy'? But we have no idea what energy even is. If I assert that energy is "God's will phyiscally manifesting", how could we even debate it? We have no idea what "God" is apart from a label for the mystery source of all being, and we have no idea what "energy" actually IS apart from a few descriptions of how it appears to function.

I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the 'existence = (expressed) energy' assertion but it doesn't really tell us anything more than the 'existence = God's will' assertion. Nor does it address the source.

Everything is energy, mass is energy
Of course we know what energy is and its forms.
You have no idea if a god exists so you can make up whatever you want to satisfy your own mind.

 

[Koldo]

The "big bang" was an organized possibility that occurred. Whatever the source of that organized possibility was, it "pre-existed" existence as we experience and understand it. It determined that those "chemical and physical properties of matter" happened as they happened, and that everything that happened as a result of them, also happened. (And everything else that might otherwise have happened, but did not happen, didn't.)

And this is the great mystery of the existential event.

The initial singularity is God then?

 

[Zwing]

Everything is energy, mass is energy

My personal view of this is that matter and energy are differing manifestations of the same reality, which reality I personally do not conceive of as “God”, but rather as “ultimate reality” or simply “the absolute” source and destiny of all things in the physical universe.

 

[F1fan]

The "big bang" was an organized possibility that occurred.

Was there some other possibility that didn't happen?

Whatever the source of that organized possibility was, it "pre-existed" existence as we experience and understand it.

The natural laws.

It determined that those "chemical and physical properties of matter" happened as they happened, and that everything that happened as a result of them, also happened. (And everything else that might otherwise have happened, but did not happen, didn't.)

This sounds as if there was only one caused effect, but you just said the BB was an organized possibility. This conflicts.

And this is the great mystery of the existential event.

Good thing we have science for answers.

 

[ChristineM]

My personal view of this is that matter and energy are differing manifestations of the same reality, which reality I personally do not conceive of as “God”, but rather as “ultimate reality” or simply “the absolute” source and destiny of all things in the physical universe.

I don't conceive of a god at all but agree mass and energy are the same

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Could be? . I know many people do consider could be's but not I, once the could be's are firm "it is" i will take a look.
E=MC2 is not a could be. It is a proven relationship.

But not the only one.
For @dybmh

Here is the contradiction for observable psychical processes in a brain versus the first person experience.
If everything is physical even first person experience, then the following is the same for the following ontological state of the mind and the brain.
The mind and what is experienced there is no different than looking at a brain externally.
I.e. it happens at the same time and place and in the same sense. So all you have to do, is to look externally at your own brain and you would know the same as if it was first person.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Everything is energy, mass is energy
Of course we know what energy is and its forms.
You have no idea if a god exists so you can make up whatever you want to satisfy your own mind.

I don't want your words for that. I want the meaning of everything is energy for the words "everything is energy" in purely physical terms and not everyday words.
If you can do that, I will listen. So only strict physical terms and nothing else.

 

[PureX]

Everything is energy, mass is energy
Of course we know what energy is and its forms.

No, we don't. Nor do we have any idea of it's source. All we think we know are a few rules about how it functions. That's it.

You have no idea if a god exists so you can make up whatever you want to satisfy your own mind.

I know that the mystery we call God exists. But I have no idea what The content of that mystery is. Just as we know that energy is that physical source of existence, but we still have no idea what energy actually is.