Pop Quiz on the Middle East

[TashaN]

The one I was thinking of.

Wasn't Sheikh Yassin surrounded by people when they offed him? I seem to recall some bodyguards and/or family members being killed as well.

Of course he was surrounded by some members in his family to help him move from a place to another.

Your point?

 

[Ody]

No response?

 

[TashaN]

Even though Hamas targets innocents?

LOL, any human being must condemn targeting civilians and Hamas is fighting for it's nation isntead of begging mama america to help them because the US government will definitely make it worse because the history prove that USA used the veto to stop the UN from condemning Israel's acts against palestinians civilians many times.

What do you know about the magic stick for Israel, the american veto?

http://www.krysstal.com/democracy_whyusa03.html

 

[Booko]

Of course he was surrounded by some members in his family to help him move from a place to another.

Your point?

Only that my memory of the events around his assassination were fuzzy on that point.

The guy in Jenin I was thinking of originally was all alone.

 

[Ody]

LOL, any human being must condemn targeting civilians

Then why support the founder of a terrorist organization?

Have you figured out who my avatar is? For a guy who prides himself on his knowledge on the palestine issue, I am discouraged you haven't figured it out. HINT, his first name is Avraham. He's a terrorist 'fighting for his cause' whos actions should make you cringe. The whole idea of this guy as my avatar was to show how awful showing high regards to terrorists, of any kind is.

 

[Booko]

What do you know about the magic stick for Israel, the american veto?

Other countries have their own magic stick in Russia, France and China.

That's why if we want to make the UN credible, we have to look at the entire subject of veto power.

But alas, that would be another thread.

 

[TashaN]

Other countries have their own magic stick in Russia, France and China.

That's why if we want to make the UN credible, we have to look at the entire subject of veto power.

But alas, that would be another thread.

Check out my link in post # 83 to see who was using the veto after all, for what purpose and how many times.

 

[Booko]

Check out my link in post # 83 to see who was using the veto after all, for what purpose and how many times.

My comment was not intended to sluff off the link you left.

I read the contents of the article. It was not news to me.

I'm well aware that my gov't has a habit of vetoing all sorts of things.

And as I will try to point out again...one...more...time....

We're not alone in our stupidity when it comes to the veto.

And I repeat:

For the UN to become any sort of effective global body, rather than a debating society and place where the powerful nations can exercise their will on others, one of the reforms that will need to be considered is whether there should be any veto at all, or what form it might take that would more fairly represent humanity's interests..

Is that clearer?

 

[Ody]

this is all about the dirty deeds of zionism which is not i repeat not judiasm. just refer to this site written by jews for the sole purpose of letting folks know the difference
www.jewsnotzionist.org

Also thier is a large Chassidic community that is very anti-zionist, called Satmar.

Satmar opposition to Zionism

The Satmar's vehement position against Zionism was refined and officially formulated by Joel Teitelbaum, though it did not originate with him. Before World War II most Hasidic rabbis, as well as many other prominent Orthodox leaders (including Rabbi Joel's father, Rabbi Chananyah Yom Tov Lipa), believed that God had promised to return the Jewish people to the land of Israel by means of the actions of the Jewish Messiah who would be sent by God, and that any activity on behalf of the Jews themselves to create or instigate this redemption would be punished. Instead of accepting benefits from the State of Israel, Rabbi Joel instead encouraged his followers to form self-sufficient communities in the Holy Land. Teitelbaum recorded a wide scope of his views on Zionism in his scholarly work Vayoel Moshe, published in 1958. Shortly before his passing he set up the Keren Hatzalah fund to help those Jews who refrain from taking monetary support from the Israeli Government.
Although it was certainly not the only reason for his opinion, one of the core citations from classical Judaic sources cited by Teitelbaum for his opposition to modern Zionism was that of the Three Oaths. This important teaching is from the Talmud in tractate Kethuboth 111a, which discusses a passage from the Song of Songs in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) in which God made the Israelites promise "to wait for Him before arousing his love":
"King Solomon in Song of Songs thrice adjured the 'daughters of Jerusalem' not to arouse or bestir the love until it is ready.' The Talmud explains that we are bound by three strong oaths not to ascend to the Holy Land as a group using force, not to rebel against the governments of countries in which we live, and not by our sins, to prolong the coming of moshiach; as is written in Tractate Kesubos 111a ." [6] A variant interpretation of the three oaths has the third oath being that God would not allow the non-Jewish world to "excessively" persecute the Jews. Rabbi Teitelbaum expressly held that the oaths were not dependant upon one another. [7] In VaYoel Moshe Teitelbaum explicitly declared that the Zionists violated the three oaths, and thereby caused the Holocaust, as well as all wars, terrorism, and violence in modern Israel, as a result: "...it has been these Zionist groups that have attracted the Jewish people and have violated the Oath against establishing a Jewish entity before the arrival of the Messiah. It is because of the Zionists that six million Jews were killed."[8]
In keeping with the three oaths, the Satmar were strongly opposed to the creation of modern Israel through violence and antagonism against gentile nations such as Britain and the Ottoman Empire. In the years following the Holocaust, Teitelbaum undertook to maintain and strengthen this position, as did many other Torah Jews and communities. Teitelbaum declared that the State of Israel was a violation of Jewish teachings. This was both because of the Zionists' violation of the traditional belief that Jews must wait for the Messiah to re-create Israel, and also because its founders included many personalities who were both hostile to Orthodox Judaism, or simply indifferent to it. Teitelbaum believed the creation of the State of Israel, against the oaths described in Ketubot, constituted a form of impatience. In keeping with the Talmud's warnings that impatience for God's love and redemption can lead to grave danger, the Satmar Hasidim have often interpreted the constant wars and terrorism in Israel as fulfilment of that prophecy.
Teitelbaum saw his opposition to Zionism as a way of protecting Jewish lives and preventing bloodshed. Most Haredi rabbis may agree with this idea, however the general view of Agudath Israel is that, despite this, for all practical purposes, efforts can be made to prevent Israel from becoming even more anti-religious through participating in the Israeli government, seen by the Agudah as a form of "damage-control". Teitelbaum however, felt that any participation in the Israeli government, even voting in elections, was a grave sin, because it contributed to the spiritual and physical destruction of innocent people. He felt that by voting one had a hand in these sins. Thus, he was officially opposed to the views of Agudath Israel, and the Satmar movement continues to refuse membership in the Agudath Israel organization or party. The Satmar view is that only the Jewish Messiah can bring about a new Jewish government in the Holy Land, and even if a government declaring itself religious would be formed before the Messiah, it would be illegitimate due to its improper arrogation of power, and it would still pose a danger to Jewish life.
While the Satmar Hasidim are opposed to the present secular government of Israel, many of them live in and visit Israel (as Teitelbaum did, many times). They see opposition to Zionism as an expression of love to the Holy Land, protecting it from the defilement of bloodshed and war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satmar

 

[TashaN]

My comment was not intended to sluff off the link you left.

I read the contents of the article. It was not news to me.

I'm well aware that my gov't has a habit of vetoing all sorts of things.

And as I will try to point out again...one...more...time....

We're not alone in our stupidity when it comes to the veto.

And I repeat:

For the UN to become any sort of effective global body, rather than a debating society and place where the powerful nations can exercise their will on others, one of the reforms that will need to be considered is whether there should be any veto at all, or what form it might take that would more fairly represent humanity's interests..

Is that clearer?

Sure

 

[greatcalgarian]

how about the palestinian land in Jordan? i believe jordan still claimed the west bank as theirs till 1988 i think
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You could be right on this one. There are lands that were usurped by the surrounding Arab nations. Palestinians are not fighting a single enemy, the Israeli. They were fighting against the surrounding Arab Nations as well. Just like the middle east nations fighting one another, Iraq vs Iran, etc. So some of the original lands resided by the group of people known as Palestinian whom British has promised to carved out a good land territory and let them become an independent nation in the 1930s, could be grabbed by the surrounding Arab nations during the chaos of 1948 to 1967.