Pope Accuses Sex Abuse Victims Of Slander

[Skwim]

"Pope Francis accused victims of Chile’s most notorious pedophile of slander, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of the Rev. Fernando Karadimas, such accusations against Barros are “all calumny.”

The pope’s remarks on Thursday (Jan. 18) drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of “penance and prayer” for his crimes in 2011.

A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes wasn’t lacking.

“As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,” tweeted Barros’ most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz. “These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.”
source​

Thoughts?

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[Revoltingest]

"Pope Francis accused victims of Chile’s most notorious pedophile of slander, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of the Rev. Fernando Karadimas, such accusations against Barros are “all calumny.”

The pope’s remarks on Thursday (Jan. 18) drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of “penance and prayer” for his crimes in 2011.

A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes wasn’t lacking.

“As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,” tweeted Barros’ most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz. “These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.”
source​

Thoughts?

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I posted it over in a Pope themed thread.
Great minds think alike, eh?
It's like we share one brain!

If true, this Pope guy is one nasty fellow.
(I verified the story with multiple disparate sources.)

 

[jonathan180iq]

​

Thoughts?

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It's unfortunate, but not wholly unexpected.

Not that is REALLY matters, but I was hoping this one would be different.

 

[David T]

"Pope Francis accused victims of Chile’s most notorious pedophile of slander, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of the Rev. Fernando Karadimas, such accusations against Barros are “all calumny.”

The pope’s remarks on Thursday (Jan. 18) drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of “penance and prayer” for his crimes in 2011.

A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes wasn’t lacking.

“As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,” tweeted Barros’ most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz. “These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.”
source​

Thoughts?

.

Leadership can be totally clueless. I think the pope threw his bishop under that bus pretty clearly. Its interesting how we interpret though.

I know Francis has been honestly appalled by what happened and has said very firmly the church must root it out totally. So I don't think he is being a total clueless here although I myself don't have all the details exactly and it appears those are not a part of the discussion here. This Pope is an usually clear headed pope and we aren't used to it. It's not natural to the order of history.

 

[Revoltingest]

The fundamental rule:
Don't attack the victims.

If it isn't the rule, then it should be.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

This Pope doesn't suck often, but when he sucks he really ****ing sucks.

 

[bobhikes]

First thing I disagree with him on and it is a major disagreement.

 

[Jumi]

There's been too much hype and misrepresentation about him.

 

[Nakosis]

​

Thoughts?

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Why are people still Catholic?

 

[metis]

I read an article on it earlier today from BBC, and the only comment is that I don't have enough info to go on in order to form an opinion. So, I'll reserve judgment until I see more.

The question begs "What did the bishop know and when did he know it", but there doesn't appear to be much evidence one way or the other from the two articles I've read. Just because the reverend appears to have done it doesn't necessarily mean that the bishop knew about it and hid it. Maybe yes, maybe no, but I'm not rushing to judgement on this.

And, to be clear, I don't rush to judgement on Trump either in terms of whether he's personally guilty of collusion and/or money laundering.

 

[Nakosis]

The Holy Father understands that many victims and survivors can find any sign of mercy in this area difficult. But he knows that the Gospel message of mercy is ultimately a source of powerful healing and of grace.

Report: Pope Francis Refuses To Punish Pedophile Priests

Mercy, fine. This seems to me more like ignoring the problem in the hopes that God will get around to changing the heart of the pedophile.

Forgive their sins maybe but get them some professional help.

 

[metis]

The Holy Father understands that many victims and survivors can find any sign of mercy in this area difficult. But he knows that the Gospel message of mercy is ultimately a source of powerful healing and of grace.

Report: Pope Francis Refuses To Punish Pedophile Priests

Mercy, fine. This seems to me more like ignoring the problem in the hopes that God will get around to changing the heart of the pedophile.

Forgive their sins maybe but get them some professional help.

There's more to this story in regards to PF's approach: Pope Francis says no second chances for pedophile priests

What he is doing in what you post above is applying some "mercy", which may well blow back up in PF's face. Controversial, yes; morally wrong, I don't know as one can play this either way.

IMO, they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and the church should be behind whatever the courts determine. And PF has made it clear, including to churches here in the States, that any evidence of molestation MUST be turned over to the civil authorities, and this was even covered in my wife's Catholic church, including through the archdiocese. Whether they follow through, time will tell.

 

[Father Heathen]

And to think he was almost a somewhat okay guy for a pope.

 

[Jumi]

And, to be clear, I don't rush to judgement on Trump either in terms of whether he's personally guilty of collusion and/or money laundering.

That's right. If we just say the Pope or Trumpster did something without evidence for it, we're just letting mob mentality control our minds. This Pope seems to get good and bad press when taken out of context.

Here's what I found:
The pope defended a bishop, saying there was no evidence that he covered up sex abuse of the perpetrator. He said that it's slander because there's no evidence.

It seems to have been taken by various presses as the pope defending the guilty priest from the victims. He probably wasn't as diplomatic as he could have been and the victims of the priest(not the bishop) were angered.

Personally, I'm withholding judgment in this case. I'm not a fan of popes or politicians, but there's no need to go call them out for something just because it feels like they might be guilty.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

That's right. If we just say the Pope or Trumpster did something without evidence for it, we're just letting mob mentality control our minds. This Pope seems to get good and bad press when taken out of context.

Here's what I found:
The pope defended a bishop, saying there was no evidence that he covered up sex abuse of the perpetrator. He said that it's slander because there's no evidence.

It seems to have been taken by various presses as the pope defending the guilty priest from the victims. He probably wasn't as diplomatic as he could have been and the victims of the priest(not the bishop) were angered.

Personally, I'm withholding judgment in this case. I'm not a fan of popes or politicians, but there's no need to go call them out for something just because it feels like they might be guilty.

As can be seen clearly, almost everyone else just assumes guilt even when they were not involved, and could actually have no concrete reason to make a judgment one way or another.

So the entire method and process is just to victimize anyone in the clergy without any evidence.

Now I can find no plea made by the initial alleged perpetrator, so I do not know if there was any sex-crime in the first place. But it seems to me that the way in which the clergy are maligned suggests a witch-hunt to begin with.

Moreover in the numerous cases like this that I have studied, the same 'blame the clergy' M.O. always seems to be a knee-jerk reaction believed by everyone regardless of the detail or any attempt to even find objective fact. Its such a pervasive trend, that I am getting to the point where I reckon in 98%+ cases, its just scape-goating and a very sinister attempt to discredit the Church.

I have further damning evidence that the church is being unfairly targeted by Satan and his petty minions, but I shall withhold this for now. But this evidence is fairly obvious to anyone who makes a careful study of these matters.

I withhold it for two reasons. Firstly, it will become easier for Satan to cover his tracks if I mention it, and secondly, it is more objective if honest folk notice it independently - and then pass on this message of faith.

Remember this though: Crucifixion is the sign of the times.

 

[Milton Platt]

"Pope Francis accused victims of Chile’s most notorious pedophile of slander, an astonishing end to a visit meant to help heal the wounds of a sex abuse scandal that has cost the Catholic Church its credibility in the country.

Francis said that until he sees proof that Bishop Juan Barros was complicit in covering up the sex crimes of the Rev. Fernando Karadimas, such accusations against Barros are “all calumny.”

The pope’s remarks on Thursday (Jan. 18) drew shock from Chileans and immediate rebuke from victims and their advocates. They noted the accusers were deemed credible enough by the Vatican that it sentenced Karadima to a lifetime of “penance and prayer” for his crimes in 2011.

A Chilean judge also found the victims to be credible, saying that while she had to drop criminal charges against Karadima because too much time had passed, proof of his crimes wasn’t lacking.

“As if I could have taken a selfie or a photo while Karadima abused me and others and Juan Barros stood by watching it all,” tweeted Barros’ most vocal accuser, Juan Carlos Cruz. “These people are truly crazy, and the pontiff talks about atonement to the victims. Nothing has changed, and his plea for forgiveness is empty.”
source​

Thoughts?

.

Okay, then...he wants to stand there and watch it, I guess.

 

[Spiderman]

Why are people still Catholic?

If the Catholic Church approved of pedophilia, I don't think people would remain Catholic...there is nothing in the teachings of the church that approves of pedophilia and it is condemned as a most grave sin... the pedophiles are doing the opposite of what the church teaches...there is a higher percentage of pedophiles among school teachers. Does that mean we should stop sending kids to public schools?

 

[Nakosis]

If the Catholic Church approved of pedophilia, I don't think people would remain Catholic...there is nothing in the teachings of the church that approves of pedophilia and it is condemned as a most grave sin... the pedophiles are doing the opposite of what the church teaches...there is a higher percentage of pedophiles among school teachers. Does that mean we should stop sending kids to public schools?

But the Pope is God's representative on earth isn't he? His views, comments, whatever he does, doesn't do represent the "Catholic" God. Whatever he says goes. To criticize the Pope is to criticize God.

Papal supremacy is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that the Pope, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ and as pastor of the entire Christian Church, has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered: that, in brief, "the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."
Papal supremacy - Wikipedia

 

[Curious George]

So there is a guilty priest. The judge agrees. The Vatican agrees. The pope agrees.

Then there is a bishop who some victims suggest was complicit in acts by physically viewing the acts. This layer removed can complicate matters legally. I am not sure about Vatican or Chilean standards. I know that in the U.S. omissions are not a crime unless there is a duty of care.

I would assume there is a duty of care, but I do not know. But even this raises other questions: whether the Bishop knew or should have known and failed to act?

What seems to be missing here are facts by which to judge. The people likely to know the facts are the victims and the pope. Differences of opinion may arise as to what constitutes guilt and proof in this matter.

I think people hear priest, molest, children and associate this with ideas that the entire church is guilty and there was a cover up. I have no idea of the facts in this situation do people who support or oppose the pope have an idea?

 

[Spiderman]

But the Pope is God's representative on earth isn't he? His views, comments, whatever he does, doesn't do represent the "Catholic" God. Whatever he says goes. To criticize the Pope is to criticize God.

Papal supremacy is the doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church that the Pope, by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ and as pastor of the entire Christian Church, has full, supreme, and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise unhindered: that, in brief, "the Pope enjoys, by divine institution, supreme, full, immediate, and universal power in the care of souls."
Papal supremacy - Wikipedia

The pope is only considered infallible when defining a Dogma excathedra