Buttons*
Glass half Panda'd
I did actually
but that's off topic *runs away*
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Pope states condoms aren't the answer to HIV
- Thread starter challupa
- Start date
but that's off topic *runs away*
Charity
Let's go racing boys !
I don't think anyone should dictate to anyone what they should or should not do when it comes to sex, or the use of condoms. I think it is very hard to take advice from someone who doesn't actively participate in something to give advice to others....If I want to learn to ice skate then I want someone with experience to teach me, and if I want to know about sex, condoms and how effective they are at least get someone to tell me that is speaking from some sort of experience.........
Let the religious leaders stick to religion and leave the medical advice to the doctors............
Would you lay down on the operating table and expect the Pope to do an appendectomy? No more than you would confess your sins to your doctor....
But then if your doctor was tall, dark and handsome he might just be the sin you need to confess...
....Let the religious leaders stick to religion and leave the medical advice to the doctors....
........Would you lay down on the operating table and expect the Pope to do an appendectomy? No more than you would confess your sins to your doctor....
But then if your doctor was tall, dark and handsome he might just be the sin you need to confess...
blackout
Violet.
Which just illustrates (all the more) what a total failure the abstainance strategy is.
(as it hinges on people ACTUALLY being abstainant)
By your own standards, the abstainance strategy in its current form fails.
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Huh? Condoms as a strategy failing because people will have sex even when they don't have them is a failure of absitnence now?Which just illustrates (all the more) what a total failure the abstainance strategy is.
(as it hinges on people ACTUALLY being abstainant)
Unfortunately, for your arguement that is, and once again, the only programs I have heard of that have success in reducing AIDS heavily emphasized a cultural change towards abstinence and faithfulness...
Why?
If you want to know the Church's stance on sex and condoms, then the Pope is the perfect person to ask... if you want to know how effective condoms are at preventing the spread of AIDS talk to a specialist in the area... at least one has been quoted here as supporting, in a way, the Pope...
The Pope isn't giving medical advice, he is giving moral guidance and noting the reality of the situation...
darkendless
Guardian of Asgaard
So Benny has finally figured out that preaching dogma such as abstinence only is ineffective and unrealistic?
But Lucho you don't have to agree with the Pope, you are not Catholic, I am starting to wonder, what is your interest in the free condoms campaign? As a Christian I want to see the end of the spread of this virus and the Salvation of these people, there are no cures for this virus yet, but the work continues for one and also a preventive vaccination, so in this stage the most effective way is to teach the virtue of abstinence, that is the Pope's position, that is his Church position as nobody can force you to become a Catholic, you don't have to agree with the highest authority in that faith, find another Church and another faith. I am thinking in going back to the Catholic Church for their boldness in the preaching of Christianity tenets, they are not trying to become popular and compromise, for every vice that constantly disturbs our souls, there is a virtue that we must develop.
The Church won't accept you so this is a non-event. And the Pope is not mistaken either abstinence works, and the Church is always there for those that are weak, to teach, to counsel to strengthen.
If you join his flock you will learn and believe the power of virtue, you will develop self-control.:shout
The Pope is confined by his religion and i am sure that if he could think for himself he would undoubtedly see the logic of condoms,asking people to abstain from sex is just unrealistic and naive and obviously comes from people who do not experience sex.
All the Pope needs to say is its ok to use a Condom,its that simple and leave the morals of it to each individual just as we have advertisments on the TV about responsible sex and using a Condom to prevent unwanted pregnancies and STDs ,people are not stupid,if they are shown the real facts they can make their own educated choice and not a load of gibberish.
All the Pope needs to say is its ok to use a Condom,its that simple and leave the morals of it to each individual just as we have advertisments on the TV about responsible sex and using a Condom to prevent unwanted pregnancies and STDs ,people are not stupid,if they are shown the real facts they can make their own educated choice and not a load of gibberish.
Smoke
Done here.
He looks like a pope you'd see in a Jack Chick tract, doesn't her?
Describing these pictures as bizarre....
would not be enough. :areyoucra :bat:
That's is problem here, the Pope addressed this message to Christians and we Christians do think that we must follow the dictates of God's laws and commandments. if you want to learn about the virtue of abstinence and it effectiveness. Who else would you consult? Surely one that practices this virtue, right? The Pope is an expert on this, this discussion is getting to muddle up, all that the article (news at that time) said is that abstinence is 100% effective in the control of the spreading of this virus, and that condoms aren't. What in green earth does this got to do with the subject of the thread? Would you lay down on the operating table and expect the Pope to do an appendectomy? No more than you would confess your sins to your doctor":areyoucraI don't think anyone should dictate to anyone what they should or should not do when it comes to sex, or the use of condoms. I think it is very hard to take advice from someone who doesn't actively participate in something to give advice to others....If I want to learn to ice skate then I want someone with experience to teach me, and if I want to know about sex, condoms and how effective they are at least get someone to tell me that is speaking from some sort of experience.....
Let the religious leaders stick to religion and leave the medical advice to the doctors....
Would you lay down on the operating table and expect the Pope to do an appendectomy? No more than you would confess your sins to your doctor....
But then if your doctor was tall, dark and handsome he might just be the sin you need to confess...
Off topic my dear fellow this discussion is about strategies, not unwanted prenancies, strategies that will help to slow down the spreading of HIV, the Pope counsel to Christians is abstain! and Hell will freeze over before the Pope will counsel a Christian to have sex regardless of been infected with HIV, condoms are not 100% effective, not as effective as the virtue of abstinence, they is not one chance that the Pope will participate in the promotions of irresponsibility and damnation, the Pope advertising condoms on TV? are you some kind of a nut? if "people are not stupid" what's the problem? If they have contracted HIV, they can be educated about the danger of contracting or infecting someone else, don't have sex with those that are known to be infected nor have sex with anyone (abstain) if you are infected, and Bob's your uncle.
There is a large gaping hole in your reasoning,first of all many are unaware that they are infected and continue to be sexually active,second the Pope may know the Mass back to front but has little understanding of Human nature.
Of course abstenance would work,but,and it is a big but,people will still continue to be sexually active regardless of what the Pope says,that being the case would it not be logical to say that if you are going to be sexually active to use a Condom which greatly reduces the risk of infection of STDs and unwanted pregnancies,and no i am not some kind of nut,religious or otherwise.
Forget about HIV in Africa; keep an eye on the New York’s free condoms campaign. Then compare it success to the Ugandan campaign in the 90’s.
New York City is the "capital" of the HIV and AIDS epidemic in the United States, with more cases than any other area of the country. Currently, more than 100,000 people in New York City are known to have HIV or AIDS, and AIDS is the city's third-leading cause of death among all people under the age of 65. During 2005, NY City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the NY City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene began a massive free condom distribution campaign in an effort to reduce the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. The condoms are distributed locally and via the Internet at no cost to the community and to social service organizations.
http://www.helium.com/items/137942-new-york-city-free-condom-distribution-to-promote-safe-sex.
Check this out: http://www.5min.com/Video/Learn2Discern---Condom-Lobby-Strikes-Again-32257184
New York City is the "capital" of the HIV and AIDS epidemic in the United States, with more cases than any other area of the country. Currently, more than 100,000 people in New York City are known to have HIV or AIDS, and AIDS is the city's third-leading cause of death among all people under the age of 65. During 2005, NY City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the NY City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene began a massive free condom distribution campaign in an effort to reduce the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. The condoms are distributed locally and via the Internet at no cost to the community and to social service organizations.
http://www.helium.com/items/137942-new-york-city-free-condom-distribution-to-promote-safe-sex.
Check this out: http://www.5min.com/Video/Learn2Discern---Condom-Lobby-Strikes-Again-32257184
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Forget about HIV in Africa; keep an eye on the New York’s free condoms campaign. Then compare it success to the Ugandan campaign in the 90’s.
New York City is the "capital" of the HIV and AIDS epidemic in the United States, with more cases than any other area of the country. Currently, more than 100,000 people in New York City are known to have HIV or AIDS, and AIDS is the city's third-leading cause of death among all people under the age of 65. During 2005, NY City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the NY City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene began a massive free condom distribution campaign in an effort to reduce the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. The condoms are distributed locally and via the Internet at no cost to the community and to social service organizations.
http://www.helium.com/items/137942-new-york-city-free-condom-distribution-to-promote-safe-sex.
Check this out: http://www.5min.com/Video/Learn2Discern---Condom-Lobby-Strikes-Again-32257184
New York City is the "capital" of the HIV and AIDS epidemic in the United States, with more cases than any other area of the country. Currently, more than 100,000 people in New York City are known to have HIV or AIDS, and AIDS is the city's third-leading cause of death among all people under the age of 65. During 2005, NY City Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the NY City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene began a massive free condom distribution campaign in an effort to reduce the prevalence of sexually transmitted diseases, including HIV. The condoms are distributed locally and via the Internet at no cost to the community and to social service organizations.
http://www.helium.com/items/137942-new-york-city-free-condom-distribution-to-promote-safe-sex.
Check this out: http://www.5min.com/Video/Learn2Discern---Condom-Lobby-Strikes-Again-32257184
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Alceste
Vagabond
Oddly, it's not like I went searching for particularly evil-looking pictures of the Pope. If you do a google image search, there are hundreds of pages of photos of the pope looking evil. It's actually hard to find one where he doesn't look evil. This is my favorite though:
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Trouble is, while abstinence is theorically effective as a defense against STD and AIDS, in practice it simply does not happen, never did. Maybe in some very specific circles, but even there it is chancy at best to rely on such a strategy.
In practice, proposing abstinency as a main protection from STD (and for that matter, unplanned pregnancy) serves only to breed fear, excessive secretiveness and lack of trust on one's own parents, relatives and friends.
Abstinence campaigns create an environment that refuses to accept, much less discuss and offer good advice, on the very natural urges that many people have. They nurture pointless shame and dangerous lies as opposed to maturity, moral courage and personal responsibility. And, quite frankly, it is not like too many people even need the Pope's help to realize that abstinence, when actually attainable, is indeed a very effective protection against pregnancy and STD.
It is very disappointing, at the very least, to see the Pope reinforce such a pointless and dangerous way. A responsible parent would be wrong in making such claims. A Pope is not supposed to even consider it as a joke.
You miss the point, Emiliano (btw, I am Luis, not Lucho or Luisa).
Of course I don't have to agree with the Pope. There was never any doubt about that.
Then again, neither do I have to refrain from denouncing his mistakes. That other people feel guilt about doing so is quite irrelevant, and incidentally, more than a bit worrysome in itself.
There is definitely NO need for me to be Catholic in order to attain the right of criticizing his policies. If for no other reason, because I will live in the same world where the Catholics that will probably attempt to follow his so-called advice also live. When their troubles multiply as a result, I will unavoidably suffer the consequences along them. That alone is enough to grant me the duty and the right to cry fould when need be.
Actually, while I do support that campaign, I am more worried about the Pope's irresponsible statements themselves. Free condoms are a good thing, but their importance pales by contrast.
Simply not true, sorry. Sexual education is FAR more effective, and lacks most of the dangers of abstinence preaching.
And denounce the beejezus out of that irresponsible so-called authority, yes. I agree with that.
Foolhardiness is not always an indication of courage, much less of knowing what one is doing.
Actually, it seems that the Church would accept me, far as I can tell. It is me who have no interest in paying homage to a Church that makes a point of losing its way.
And the Pope is not mistaken either abstinence works, and the Church is always there for those that are weak, to teach, to counsel to strengthen.
If you join his flock you will learn and believe the power of virtue, you will develop self-control.:shout
One must wonder why it simply does not happen with other people, then...
Christians do not live in a separate world. They do not have any less social impact than anyone else. They have no claim to privilege in this regard, no excuse to be mindless and engage in dangerous behavior.
Reason and logic? Actual facts?
Maybe he is abstinent himself. That gives him no authority to decree that others should also be, even if true.
Now THAT is muddling the point. Abstinence is effective when it actually happens. For various social and even biological reasons that are having far less attention than they deserve, it very rarely does.
Condoms are effective. Feeling guilty from not abstaining from sex isn't. Except for a minority of people, attempting abstinence creates FAR more trouble than it avoids.
LuisDantas,
OK, let go, you say: That you would appeal to Reason and logic, Actual facts.
Let reason, most people that are infected by this virus are infected through promiscuous sexual behaviors. The problem is lack of self-control which is the primary point of control, whatever measures are to be designed must address this point, the A in the ABC strategy. The Pope acted in this area because he has the added responsibility of been a spiritual leader to these infected people.
You say:
He practices it, he knows that is achievable, thats what gives him authority, he is also a teacher, a theologian.
You say:
Condoms are effective when people use them, and only when they use them properly and that is not happening. In any case those that are not Christian can do whatever they please, nobody is forcing abstinaence on them, is it?
OK, let go, you say: That you would appeal to Reason and logic, Actual facts.
Let reason, most people that are infected by this virus are infected through promiscuous sexual behaviors. The problem is lack of self-control which is the primary point of control, whatever measures are to be designed must address this point, the A in the ABC strategy. The Pope acted in this area because he has the added responsibility of been a spiritual leader to these infected people.
You say:
We Christians believe that we are not of this world, that is what the master, Jesus taught, that is what the apostles, have you ever read a Bible?
He practices it, he knows that is achievable, thats what gives him authority, he is also a teacher, a theologian.
You say:
Abstinence is achievable and is commanded, if you are a Christian that through sin contracted the virus, repented and were forgiven you must atone for your sin, you must not remain sexually active, if you do you will not loose your Salvation.
Condoms are effective when people use them, and only when they use them properly and that is not happening. In any case those that are not Christian can do whatever they please, nobody is forcing abstinaence on them, is it?