Pornography poll

[brokensymmetry]

I believe the answer should be taken from women first, not men. They are the ones mainly under focus in pornography. Dunno, but I think that most men saying that it does not exploit women, mostly don't really care except for their own desire. I'm not saying all men.

I'd rather choose the word "expose" instead of "exploit" in this case. Jobs could exploit, but shouldn't expose people.

Just my 2 cents!

Suppose you are well informed about the potential risks and pitfall of a position, and still want to do it. Why should you be forbidden from it?

 

[Smart_Guy]

Suppose you are well informed about the potential risks and pitfall of a position, and still want to do it. Why should you be forbidden from it?

Some people want to do so many other things and they know the potential risks and pitfall of a position. (murder, stealing, swearing, rape, vandalism, etc...)

This does not mean those acts should be allowed just because they still wanted to do it

 

[freethinker44]

Some people want to do so many other things and they know the potential risks and pitfall of a position. (murder, stealing, swearing, rape, vandalism, etc...)

This does not mean those acts should be allowed just because they still wanted to do it

That doesn't matter, none of those things is related to porn in any way, it's a false analogy. They are just negative things you've associated with pornography (and swearing, because that doesn't belong between stealing and rape) to make it appear worse than it is, guilt by association. Either way, just because something has risks associated with it, doesn't mean it is wrong or should be restricted/banned.

 

[Smart_Guy]

That doesn't matter, none of those things is related to porn in any way, it's a false analogy. They are just negative things you've associated with pornography (and swearing, because that doesn't belong between stealing and rape) to make it appear worse than it is, guilt by association. Either way, just because something has risks associated with it, doesn't mean it is wrong or should be restricted/banned.

Nope, it wasn't related to pornography, it was related to a friendly discussion on someone else's thought, and I did not associate it with pornography.

If you want something I associate it with, it would be that all of them are bad along with, in my beliefs and opinion, pornography. If you believe porn is good, it is your choice and I respect it although disagree with it. Some others believe murder is good too.

Again, opinions of women is what matter most in this. They are the ones under the focus of porn the most. I'm considering their feelings in thinking porn is bad.

 

[freethinker44]

Again, opinions of women is what matter most in this. They are the ones under the focus of porn the most. I'm considering their feelings in thinking porn is bad.

I don't think women's opinions matter most in this. The only opinions that matter are those of people involved in porn and of people who view it. If they're OK with it then it's no one else's business, you're just trying to tell grown and consenting men and women what they can and can't do with their own bodies and what they can and can't watch.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I don't think women's opinions matter most in this. The only opinions that matter are those of people involved in porn and of people who view it.

You don't think, but I do, simple as that. What I think does not necessarily cut it and make it the right thing, same for what you think. Then again, we are both guys and cannot speak for women. They have their free well to speak their minds.

If they're OK with it then it's no one else's business, you're just trying to tell grown and consenting men and women what they can and can't do with their own bodies and what they can and can't watch.

I said:

....it would be that all of them are bad along with, in my beliefs and opinion, pornography. If you believe porn is good, it is your choice and I respect it although disagree with it...

Again, opinions of women is what matter most in this. They are the ones under the focus of porn the most. I'm considering their feelings in thinking porn is bad.

I wonder why the police try to stop those trying to commit suicide... hmm...

Anyways, keywords in my quoted post are: beliefs, opinion and thinking. I never said I was trying to control what others can and cannot do. Who ever agrees with me is welcome, and whoever not, well, is also welcome. You seem like your trying to make me a bad guy here. If you're not, then I apologize for this accusation!

Is that font color too bright to the eyes?

 

[Riverwolf]

Nope, it wasn't related to pornography, it was related to a friendly discussion on someone else's thought, and I did not associate it with pornography.

You DID associate it with pornography by bringing it up in the first place.

You may not have intended such an association, but one is nevertheless present.

You do it again right here:

If you want something I associate it with, it would be that all of them are bad along with, in my beliefs and opinion, pornography. If you believe porn is good, it is your choice and I respect it although disagree with it. Some others believe murder is good too.

Simply bringing up the fact that some people think murder is good in the same paragraph that you say you respect the opinions of people who think porn is good is drawing an association between murder and porn, whether you intend it or not.

Not everything we communicate is what we intended to communicate.

Besides, badness has a hierarchy. While a lot of the current porn industry is very close to murder in terms of the harm it causes women(I deliberately avoid such porn, and think it shouldn't be anywhere near as prevalent as it is), porn in itself does not inherently cause any real harm. That would be like saying because the bulk of the food we eat in the US is basically some degree of poison, that all food is poisonous.

And yes, by my earlier logic, that does draw an association between porn and food. That was not my initial intention, but due to the fact that sex is one of the basic physical needs along with food, water, and shelter, I stand by that association.

Again, opinions of women is what matter most in this. They are the ones under the focus of porn the most. I'm considering their feelings in thinking porn is bad.

There's a great documentary called "After Porn Ends" that features interviews with ex-porn stars (mostly women, but a few men, too). Check it out if you want to see some of their feelings. I'd wager that at least one story WILL surprise you.

If you don't have access to it, here's an interview with a French porn star on the subject of Hentai (Japanese pornographic cartoons), by online personality Benzai.

The website this video is hosted on is not a pornographic website, and most of its content involves reviews of games and movies. The website in general is absolutely safe for work, but this particular video, and the particular section it's under(GameFap), may not be safe for work even though there's no explicit nudity in it.

http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/bt/benzaie/gf/29880-pornstar-katsuni-about-hentai

 

[Smart_Guy]

You DID associate it with pornography by bringing it up in the first place.

You may not have intended such an association, but one is nevertheless present.

You do it again right here:

Simply bringing up the fact that some people think murder is good in the same paragraph that you say you respect the opinions of people who think porn is good is drawing an association between murder and porn, whether you intend it or not.

Not everything we communicate is what we intended to communicate.

Besides, badness has a hierarchy. While a lot of the current porn industry is very close to murder in terms of the harm it causes women(I deliberately avoid such porn, and think it shouldn't be anywhere near as prevalent as it is), porn in itself does not inherently cause any real harm. That would be like saying because the bulk of the food we eat in the US is basically some degree of poison, that all food is poisonous.

And yes, by my earlier logic, that does draw an association between porn and food. That was not my initial intention, but due to the fact that sex is one of the basic physical needs along with food, water, and shelter, I stand by that association.

There's a great documentary called "After Porn Ends" that features interviews with ex-porn stars (mostly women, but a few men, too). Check it out if you want to see some of their feelings. I'd wager that at least one story WILL surprise you.

If you don't have access to it, here's an interview with a French porn star on the subject of Hentai (Japanese pornographic cartoons), by online personality Benzai.

The website this video is hosted on is not a pornographic website, and most of its content involves reviews of games and movies. The website in general is absolutely safe for work, but this particular video, and the particular section it's under(GameFap), may not be safe for work even though there's no explicit nudity in it.

Pornstar Katsuni About Hentai

Hmm..

Looks like my English does fail me sometimes as an Arab

Thanks for the link and keywords. I'll check them out sometime!

 

[brokensymmetry]

Some people want to do so many other things and they know the potential risks and pitfall of a position. (murder, stealing, swearing, rape, vandalism, etc...)

This does not mean those acts should be allowed just because they still wanted to do it

If you murder someone you are violating their rights, same with stealing, same with rape. You are causing them harm, this is not permitted. In the case of vandalism you are damaging someone's property, this is not permitted either. I don't see anything wrong with swearing.

Pornography, if a woman freely chooses to do it as a full grown adult, is something she does which doesn't involve her physically harming someone else or destroying someone else's property.

 

[Riverwolf]

I have a simple questions to who selected the forth choice whom I believe are mostly men, if not all; did you think of the feelings of women in general, specially devoted and modest women, before selecting that choice?

Yes. All of my female friends, as well as my girlfriend, are okay with porn.

Hmm..

Looks like my English does fail me sometimes as an Arab

Hey! I didn't even know English wasn't your first language. I think your English is actually pretty good; the communication errors I'm citing on your part are quite common in the English-speaking world.

Dunno if we can take the word of those who don't mind it tho; e.g. porn stars. I think only thoughts of those not involved in porn is what can be taken as fair answers. Who does something willingly, mostly commends it and calls it good. As for the forth option of the poll and that is the most selected, I feel that like most, if not all, of them are men, taking how many males and females posted in this thread as a first impression (I could be wrong tho)!

I think it's actually terribly unfair to discount the opinions of porn stars; they're the ones who are actually in it, after all. If anything, theirs are the opinions that count the most.

That's like saying I'm a better judge of Arabic culture and history than you are, solely for the reason that I'm not Arab. (I'm not a better judge on that than you, by the way; I know very little about Arabic culture and history.)

If you care about the opinions of women, then you need to consider the voices of ALL women, including porn stars. They're still people, after all.

But if you insist on hearing from a pro-porn woman who is not a porn star, I direct you to Laci Green(still not safe for work; contains swearing):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg4SGWNQSAs

For the record, if you find my earlier post in this thread, you'll see that I did not vote in this poll since I felt that my stance isn't represented in the poll (that some porn is exploitative and some isn't, and it should not be banned). I still stand by that. Plus, I actually know the genders of many of those members who voted(their usernames are visible), and the ratio of men to women is about the same on all options (that is, mostly men with some women). Though it is definitely worth mentioning that the third option seems to have a slightly higher percentage of women than the fourth option.

 

[Smart_Guy]

If you murder someone you are violating their rights, same with stealing, same with rape. You are causing them harm, this is not permitted. In the case of vandalism you are damaging someone's property, this is not permitted either. I don't see anything wrong with swearing.

Pornography, if a woman freely chooses to do it as a full grown adult, is something she does which doesn't involve her physically harming someone else or destroying someone else's property.

I guess this points to where our thoughts differ. I personally see that porn is no less harmful than those crimes but you, as I gathered, don't. Please don't get me wrong, it is your thought and I respect that!

I believe there are things that cannot necessarily be called right simply because we can freely choose it even if it does not violate the rights of others. Committing suicide for example is prevented sometimes even by force even if it is to be done by adults in their full mental power. I fear that one day even that will be legally allowed!

 

[Riverwolf]

I guess this points to where our thoughts differ. I personally see that porn is no less harmful than those crimes but you, as I gathered, don't. Please don't get me wrong, it is your thought and I respect that!

I believe there are things that cannot necessarily be called right simply because we can freely choose it even if it does not violate the rights of others. Committing suicide for example is prevented sometimes even by force even if it is to be done by adults in their full mental power. I fear that one day even that will be legally allowed!

It is rare for suicides to be committed by people with full mental capability. 99% of the time, they are mentally sick and have little to no real control over their actions, even if they might appear stable.

If measurable harm is not the standard by which right and wrong can be determined, what, then, can we use?

 

[Tiberius]

I guess this points to where our thoughts differ. I personally see that porn is no less harmful than those crimes but you, as I gathered, don't. Please don't get me wrong, it is your thought and I respect that!

Just out of curiosity, can you explain the harm caused by a mentally healthy woman agreeing to have pornographic pictures taken of herself?

 

[Smart_Guy]

It is rare for suicides to be committed by people with full mental capability. 99% of the time, they are mentally sick and have little to no real control over their actions, even if they might appear stable.

If measurable harm is not the standard by which right and wrong can be determined, what, then, can we use?

Um, what do you think of the remaining 1% that is mentally sound, do you think it is okay, by right, for them to commit suicide and that no one should stop them?

Just out of curiosity, can you explain the harm caused by a mentally healthy woman agreeing to have pornographic pictures taken of herself?

Well, say someone lives in a protective community or does not have enough money to get married or go to the red district, when they see those pictures, they might get tempted to look for a way to feed the triggered instinct some other way. This will increase the possibility of a rape crime. A rape crime could open up a series of unwanted effects like unwanted pregnancy, mental traumas, sexually transmitted diseases... etc.!

That maybe considered not a good reason, but for me it is, as in my beliefs prevention is an important thing. Just my beliefs

 

[freethinker44]

Um, what do you think of the remaining 1% that is mentally sound, do you think it is okay, by right, for them to commit suicide and that no one should stop them?

Not only do I think it's okay, I would help them do it if they asked.

Well, say someone lives in a protective community or does not have enough money to get married or go to the red district, when they see those pictures, they might get tempted to look for a way to feed the triggered instinct some other way. This will increase the possibility of a rape crime. A rape crime could open up a series of unwanted effects like unwanted pregnancy, mental traumas, sexually transmitted diseases... etc.!

That maybe considered not a good reason, but for me it is, as in my beliefs prevention is an important thing. Just my beliefs

Statistics don't back you up on this. If you are correct we would expect to find more sexual assaults in areas with widespread use of porn. Studies don't show this at all and in fact, some appear to support the exact opposite of your claims. In some studies sexual assaults decrease as porn becomes more available even as other types of crime, especially violent crimes, increase.

Source: Legalizing pornography: Lower sex crime rates? Study carried out in Czech Republic shows results similar to those in Japan and Denmark -- ScienceDaily
Most significantly, they found that the number of reported cases of child sex abuse dropped markedly immediately after the ban on sexually explicit materials was lifted in 1989. In both Denmark and Japan, the situation is similar: Child sex abuse was much lower than it was when availability of child pornography was restricted.


Other results showed that, overall, there was no increase in reported sex-related crimes generally since the legalization of pornography. Interestingly, whereas the number of sex-related crimes fell significantly after 1989, the number of other societal crimes -- murder, assault, and robbery -- rose significantly.

Source: Pornography and rape: theory and practi... [Int J Law Psychiatry. 1991] - PubMed - NCBI
If (violent) pornography causes rape, this exceptional development in the availability of (violent) pornography should definitely somehow influence the rape statistics. Since, however, the rape figures could not simply be expected to remain steady during the period in question (when it is well known that most other crimes increased considerably), the development of rape rates was compared with that of non-sexual violent offences and nonviolent sexual offences (in so far as available statistics permitted). The results showed that in none of the countries did rape increase more than nonsexual violent crimes.

Source: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/200904/does-pornography-cause-social-harm
Since the arrival of Internet porn:
* Sexual irresponsibility has declined.
* Teen sex has declined.
* Divorce has declined.
* Rape has declined.

 

[Riverwolf]

Um, what do you think of the remaining 1% that is mentally sound, do you think it is okay, by right, for them to commit suicide and that no one should stop them?

I would guess that if they're mentally sound, they're doing it to prevent some greater harm from coming to others.

Such as keeping a terrible secret weapon from falling into the wrong hands in the case of some sci-fi movies (and one in particular the naming of which would spoil it.

Spoiler: For those curious

Gojira/Godzilla: King of the Monsters.

Or in a less dramatic example, choosing to end one's life after hearing about having dementia/alzheimer's disease, in order to spare one's family the pain and suffering of watching such degeneration, and ending up with that being their most vivid memory of one. (I certainly wouldn't want my family's most vivid and lasting memory of me to be a forgetful, inattentive, mumbling old man. Thank the Gods I never saw my paternal Grandmother go through her dementia so my abiding memory of her can be her wonderful biscuits, iced tea, Chuky-Cheese, and sending me jelly beans on Christmas.)

Well, say someone lives in a protective community or does not have enough money to get married or go to the red district, when they see those pictures, they might get tempted to look for a way to feed the triggered instinct some other way.

Masturbation, maybe with sex toys. Gets the job done quite well.

This will increase the possibility of a rape crime. A rape crime could open up a series of unwanted effects like unwanted pregnancy, mental traumas, sexually transmitted diseases... etc.!

That maybe considered not a good reason, but for me it is, as in my beliefs prevention is an important thing. Just my beliefs

While I understand the connection, porn does not inherently make rapists out of people, any more than, say, Manowar's music is turning me from a pacifist to a murderer. (That is to say, I enjoy listening to some of the music of the band Manowar, whose lyrics are all about the glories of medieval-style war and combat. I was a gentle, anti-war pacifist before finding them, and I'm still just as much of a gentle, anti-war pacifist.)

I also believe prevention is incredibly important. But there are far more productive ways to do so than censorship (which doesn't work, anyway, and just encourages black market growth), such as teaching people (men and women alike) how not to rape, in addition to how to avoid being raped. After all, self-defense classes teach how to defend from a physical assault, but they also teach to avoid conflict if at all possible (at least if it's any good).

I also recently hypothesized that the majority of rapists (who almost always consist of people the victim knows and trusts, such as a partner or spouse) may not realize that they've raped. After all, to use an example from a PG movie(well, PG by the standards of the 1960s), the bit near the end of the James Bond film Goldfinger essentially involves Bond raping his female captor. (Yes, she quickly submits to his "charms", but that still would count as coercive rape, since she was initially resistant.) How many people who saw that movie in the old days recognized what they were watching as rape? Heck, how many people who see the movie today recognize it as rape? I certainly didn't for years after seeing the film. (For the record, I still enjoy James Bond films as pure escapist fantasy, but I take them about as seriously as Adam West's Batman.)

Porn doesn't inherently make us rapists, but in a rape-culture (like the one in the US), the prevalence of woman-degrading porn can reinforce that already-existent cultural attitude. Hence why I'm not against porn inherently, but I am against any type of degrading or disrespectful live-action porn. (Dominance-porn doesn't count, since that could easily be consensual role-play; it's not terribly hard to tell whether the people involved are enjoying themselves, or at least comfortable and respectful. Cartoons and animations also don't count, since they don't involve real people.)

 

[Smart_Guy]

Collecting information from your feedback guys, although I still think porn is appropriate, makes me feel better. I'm a guy after all and part of me, the selfish part, does not want porn to get banned!

I think the superb law in the US is what helps in stopping the side effects I spoke of earlier of porn. Then again, I don't live in the States so I'm not really sure!

The thing is, I don't like to see or know my female relatives get involved in such a thing, so I think of the feelings of other women in the porn industry, especially the ones forced to do it one way or another, and their families

But I guess people are different and I respect that!

 

[freethinker44]

The thing is, I don't like to see or know my female relatives get involved in such a thing, so I think of the feelings of other women in the porn industry, especially the ones forced to do it one way or another, and their families

It's all subjective. I feel the same way about my sister wanting to be a cop. She's going to leave a good paying job in health care helping people and become a road pirate. Ugh. Honestly, I'd be less upset if she went into porn.

 

[Smart_Guy]

It's all subjective. I feel the same way about my sister wanting to be a cop. She's going to leave a good paying job in health care helping people and become a road pirate. Ugh. Honestly, I'd be less upset if she went into porn.

Yes, that is what I meant by "people are different", that it is subjective!

Going with our saying "love for the others what you love for yourself", I wish the best for your sister and that in the end she finds something much better than all of the above!

 

[Riverwolf]

The thing is, I don't like to see or know my female relatives get involved in such a thing, so I think of the feelings of other women in the porn industry, especially the ones forced to do it one way or another, and their families

But I guess people are different and I respect that!

We're not so different in that regard.

Nobody should be forced into doing porn(or into doing anything, for that matter), and my heart goes out to anyone who ends up in that position.

It's why I directed you to that documentary; not all of the women interviewed are proud of their job.