Pornography poll

[Aquitaine]

No, I personally don't think it does. Not unless they're selling it commercially. If they're just exhibitionists, it's a kink. Erotica, perhaps.

That's my just my personal opinion, mind you. The generally accepted definition is any depictions of sex and sexual organs.

For the record, I only think of porn where people are being paid to have sex as prostitution. Obviously. That's most of it.

That makes sense. I suppose it is only logical to assume that - as you said - if the correct social conditions are met for people regarding things like protection from child/sexual abuse, mental health services, education and economic opportunity etc, the "population" of Porn workers would shrink to a mere fraction of it's normal size.

All that would remain would be the kinky exhibitionists doing it in a healthy and safe environment, with people they know and trust. To be honest, I think that outcome is far better for everyone involved - not just the participants, but the viewers too.

 

[Koldo]

What do you mean? She gets to use a condom at least when she's turning tricks. In that sense, being filmed prostituting is more dangerous, since the producers usually refuse to allow condoms to be used.

What i mean is that you can't use data on prostitution as a whole to make claims about pornography. Not using condoms is just one part of the matter at hand.

 

[Alceste]

Therefore...... all persons taking part are prostitutes, but you have not included any stats for the males involved, the risks that they run, nor the pasts that they experienced. In fact you don't seem to have represented them at all.

Your whole presentation appears to have been biased and distorted. There does not appear to be any balance to your arguments, and many of your chosen stats have come from hopelessly one-sided viewpoints and politics. Melissa Farley would be a good example?

On this thread you have suggested (on one hand) that Canadian government motives are, well, 'not good', yet later you have pointed out that part of the stats shown are from government (Wow!). This is called cherrypicking, I think?

There's nothing in this post I can respond to. Be specific.

Which specific factual claims do you have a problem with and why? What is your counter-evidence? If you don't believe the industry is anything like what the four separate sources I've delivered claim, what do you believe it's like instead?

Take a stance and defend it. Just complaining about somebody else's stance is not debating.

FYI, the experience of male prostitutes is similar to the experience of female prostitutes. If you'd actually read that paper Melissa Farley wrote you'd know that already.

 

[Alceste]

What i mean is that you can't use data on prostitution as a whole to make claims about pornography. Not using condoms is just one part of the matter at hand.

Everybody keeps saying that but nobody seems to have a good reason why I can't lump porn actors and prostitutes into a single category.

When you're paid to have sex with random people, you are a prostitute. Correct?

If you hire a prostitute for your bachelor party and somebody films her giving a blow job on their phone, is that suddenly not prostitution any more?

Porn is the product. Prostitution is the activity being filmed.

 

[Alceste]

That makes sense. I suppose it is only logical to assume that - as you said - if the correct social conditions are met for people regarding things like protection from child/sexual abuse, mental health services, education and economic opportunity etc, the "population" of Porn workers would shrink to a mere fraction of it's normal size.

All that would remain would be the kinky exhibitionists doing it in a healthy and safe environment, with people they know and trust. To be honest, I think that outcome is far better for everyone involved - not just the participants, but the viewers too.

Exactly. Thanks for understanding my position.

I think public education is a factor too. Address the demand as well as the supply. Makes me think of that other thread about incorporating information about how to frame porn into sex ed classes. I think that's a really good idea.

 

[Koldo]

Everybody keeps saying that but nobody seems to have a good reason why I can't lump porn actors and prostitutes into a single category.

When you're paid to have sex with random people, you are a prostitute. Correct?

If you hire a prostitute for your bachelor party and somebody films her giving a blow job on their phone, is that suddenly not prostitution any more?

Porn is the product. Prostitution is the activity being filmed.

This is not relevant to what i said.
If we call it prostitution, it is still a subset within prostitution.
What i am saying is that you can't use data about prostitution as a whole to make claims about pornography.

 

[Alceste]

This is not relevant to what i said.
If we call it prostitution, it is still a subset within prostitution.
What i am saying is that you can't use data about prostitution as a whole to make claims about pornography.

Why not? Commercial porn actors are prostitutes. They work both on camera and off. They generally came to the industry through prostitution.

Anyway, about half my factual claims (prevalence of STDs, prevalence of abuse, working conditions, internal bleeding and other injuries, etc.) are specifically about porn actors.

If you'd watched that interview, you'd have a grasp on the usual story. Abuse, prostitution, porn + prostitution. I suppose you could argue that's a general upward trajectory, at least as far as not having to worry as much about being murdered or raped is concerned. It's a little less likely with so many witnesses in the room.

 

[Koldo]

Why not? Commercial porn actors are prostitutes. They work both on camera and off. They generally came to the industry through prostitution.

Because then we aren't talking pornography anymore.

Anyway, about half my factual claims (prevalence of STDs, prevalence of abuse, working conditions, internal bleeding and other injuries, etc.) are specifically about porn actors.

Which means we have got half of the claims out of the way by now.
I am going to check the others.

If you'd watched that interview, you'd have a grasp on the usual story. Abuse, prostitution, porn + prostitution. I suppose you could argue that's a general upward trajectory, at least as far as not having to worry as much about being murdered or raped is concerned. It's a little less likely with so many witnesses in the room.

I don't get what is your point by saying this. You do concede a woman doesn't have to necessarily be sexually abused and/or a ( common ) prostitute before becoming a porn actress, don't you?

 

[Alceste]

Because then we aren't talking pornography anymore.



Which means we have got half of the claims out of the way by now.
I am going to check the others.



I don't get what is your point by saying this. You do concede a woman doesn't have to necessarily be sexually abused and/or a ( common ) prostitute before becoming a porn actress, don't you?

What do you mean concede? I never made that claim. My claim was and still is that the vast majority are survivors of abuse. Feel free to fact check it.

 

[Me Myself]

Everybody keeps saying that but nobody seems to have a good reason why I can't lump porn actors and prostitutes into a single category.

When you're paid to have sex with random people, you are a prostitute. Correct?

If you hire a prostitute for your bachelor party and somebody films her giving a blow job on their phone, is that suddenly not prostitution any more?

Porn is the product. Prostitution is the activity being filmed.

You are comparing a woman who earns 200k a year by doing stuff by contract to one that earns10 bucks a blowjob.

The conditions of this women ae not at all the same on almost everything.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

You are comparing a woman who earns 200k a year by doing stuff by contract to one that earns10 bucks a blowjob.

The conditions of this women ae not at all the same on almost everything.

Actually some women in prostitution earn about 250 for an hour

 

[Aquitaine]

Exactly. Thanks for understanding my position.

I think public education is a factor too. Address the demand as well as the supply. Makes me think of that other thread about incorporating information about how to frame porn into sex ed classes. I think that's a really good idea.

Aye I remember that thread. Admittantly I initially didn't actually read the news article in the OP, I just - ignorantly - assumed the teachers were going to just play Prawn to the children and say "this is how you're supposed to have sex".

However, after reading the article and giving it some thought, it did make a lot of sense. It sure as Hell beats this current habit we've got with kids, where we think that never mentioning or talking about "these things" is better than giving kids a proper insight into the situation and how it really is - even if we're embarrassed to talk about it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Not all women in pornography earn that amount. In order to make that much money you have to be willing to do the most extreme acts. If you want to just do oral and vaginal penetration you won't earn anywhere near that much.

 

[Alceste]

You are comparing a woman who earns 200k a year by doing stuff by contract to one that earns10 bucks a blowjob.

The conditions of this women ae not at all the same on almost everything.

Be specific. How are they different? What is your evidence?

 

[Me Myself]

In any case, here you go

Pornography Actresses: An Assessment of the Damage... [J Sex Res. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

Extract: In terms of psychological characteristics, porn actresses had higher levels of self-esteem, positive feelings, social support, sexual satisfaction, and spirituality compared to the matched group.

Allso according to the study, the CSA were no higher for porn actresses than for general population of women

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

In any case, here you go

Pornography Actresses: An Assessment of the Damage... [J Sex Res. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

Extract: In terms of psychological characteristics, porn actresses had higher levels of self-esteem, positive feelings, social support, sexual satisfaction, and spirituality compared to the matched group.

Allso according to the study, the CSA were no higher for porn actresses than for general population of women

Can't get access to the full study

 

[Me Myself]

It is apparently documented in "the journal of sex research" another article that talks about the study:

Porn Stars Happier, Healthier Than Others? - VIDEO

 

[Koldo]

What do you mean concede? I never made that claim.

Bad word of choice alert. Replace 'concede' with 'agree'.

My claim was and still is that the vast majority are survivors of abuse. Feel free to fact check it.

What does that say about porn?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

It is apparently documented in "the journal of sex research" another article that talks about the study:

Porn Stars Happier, Healthier Than Others? - VIDEO

I can't watch the video cause I'm out and about but the commentary at the bottom tells me nothing in detail about the study and what questions were asked and in what format, interviews? Anonymous questionnaire?

 

[Skwim]

You've still refused to state which specific factual claims you're having trouble with or why, so how am I supposed to give you superior evidence for them?

Here's a recap of some of them:

Most women in porn are survivors of childhood abuse.

Possibly, but this doesn't make them prostitutes.

Whether or not you've come up with a definition of prostitution that specifically (arbitrarily, imo) excludes being paid to screw strangers on camera, porn stars also turn tricks on the side,

Possibly some of them, but this still doesn't make porn work prostitution.

and these are often arranged by porn producers.

Your evidence please. And even if this was true, so what? This still doesn't make porn work prostitution.

Also, many johns film their encounters with prostitutes.

So what? This still doesn't make porn work prostitution. AND, this isn't what the OP is about.

Prostitutes are forty times more likely to die prematurely than the general population.

So what? This still doesn't make porn work prostitution.

Most prostitutes are raped and beaten regularly, by their johns, their pimps, and sometimes police.

So what? This doesn't still doesn't make porn work prostitution.

The majority of prostitutes met the clinical criteria for PTSD.

So what? This doesn't still doesn't make porn work prostitution.

Honestly, Alceste, your continued forays into the various aspects of prostitution do nothing to help your claim about pornography. Why is it so difficult to see this and stay on track? Find reliable information about p o r n o g r a p h y and stick with that, and forget about the dire life of prostitutes. Because until you can establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the actors in porno are engaging in prostitution, the issue is irrelevant.

By the way, you might be interested to know that California is the only state that must allow pornographers to operate unimpeded because its courts found, among other things, that pornography is NOT prostitution.