Prayer: The Miracle of a Literal Super-Power

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I think the correct term is "confirmation bias".

Glad to hear you recognise what you were engaging in with your OP.

Perhaps, yes. I don't presume to know God's will. Merely wanting things isn't enough. God intercedes as He sees fit,

Yeah? Then why bother praying? The deity intercedes as it sees fit, it doesn't care what you want right? Intercessory prayer is pointless, at least we can agree on that.

but he doesn't automatically reward sinful behavior either. Someone who is addicted to drugs or engages in unnatural activity might have to put in a bit of work first.

Do what now? Who said the deity automatically rewards sinful behaviour? If your deity rewards sinful behaviour only 70% of the time, it seems to have mellowed and become a bit more liberal with age!

 

[DavidFirth]

I'm not so sure a holy bottom burp is holy. It sounds kind of messy, actually.

 

[Grumpuss]

Right. I'd like to introduce you to some people who lost their families in Srebrenica.

I'd like you to tell them that.

I doubt you know such people. Or their innermost thoughts.

"Blessed" with children? What sort of monster would give children to people suffering from a famine?

Apparently not much of a monster. Life is good.

I would consider "not starving to death" to be a good start.

I find it very interesting the over-whelming majority of these "miraculous" occurrences are from modern, Western society. Where modern medical care has done everything it can. Including getting rid of the thing actually causing the majority of her problems, the uterine tumor. And even after that, keeping her alive to give her time to come out of said coma.

In other societies people just die from that kind of thing. Because they don't have a way to keep said comatose individual alive. Or they just can't spare the food and water to someone who isn't able to contribute to their society because as I said, they're already starving.

You're overlaying your values upon the societies of others- it's not a shock that you come up with a minus, when looking at others in comparison to you. Not everyone defines "happiness" as eating at TGI Fridays, seeing the newest X-men movie or making anonymous snarky comments on message boards, as you do.

I'd encourage you to actually go and visit such people you insist live in misery and filth (because you heard about it on the Internet). Where you find happiness, you will find God.

 

[Grumpuss]

Glad to hear you recognise what you were engaging in with your OP.

In fact, I didn't. You trying to find one example to shoot down is actually confirmation bias also.

Yeah? Then why bother praying? The deity intercedes as it sees fit, it doesn't care what you want right? Intercessory prayer is pointless, at least we can agree on that.

Perhaps you need to have it explained to you. Would you like to go to church this weekend? I'm sure most pastors or priests could explain it to you, if you were sufficiently open-minded enough.

Do what now? Who said the deity automatically rewards sinful behaviour? If your deity rewards sinful behaviour only 70% of the time, it seems to have mellowed and become a bit more liberal with age!

I didn't know you had God's rule book handy. You presume to know an awful lot.

 

[Nietzsche]

I doubt you know such people. Or their innermost thoughts.

I was there with my dad in the 90s, he was a UN Peacekeeper contracted through DynCorp. I still talk to the people I met.

Apparently not much of a monster. Life is good.

Life on its own isn't good. Life without boundary or control is the literal definition of cancer. Life is good when it can be reasonably sustained.

You're overlaying your values upon the societies of others- it's not a shock that you come up with a minus, when looking at others in comparison to you. Not everyone defines "happiness" as eating at TGI Fridays, seeing the newest X-men movie or making anonymous snarky comments on message boards, as you do.

I defined happiness as simply "not starving". You're trying to paint my question and position as if I'm some kind of stereotypical "latte liberal", rather than actually address it.

Do you just not have an answer?

I'd encourage you to actually go and visit such people you insist live in misery and filth (because you heard about it on the Internet). Where you find happiness, you will find God.

That sounds remarkably like some sort of caste system. If happiness is where God is, then the unhappy people must've surely done something somewhere to deserve it, right? Makes sense. Perhaps you should stop talking to the unhappy, they may infect you with it and remove your connection with God.

Sorry. You decided to just assume what I thought and why. I thought I'd give it a go with you.

 

[Grumpuss]

I was there with my dad in the 90s, he was a UN Peacekeeper contracted through DynCorp. I still talk to the people I met.

How virtuous of you. So you know for a fact those people were good and God-fearing? Btw- the UN Peacekeepers weren't all wonderful people either.

Life on its own isn't good. Life without boundary or control is the literal definition of cancer. Life is good when it can be reasonably sustained.

Most philosophers would disagree. For someone to observe and label things as "misery", "famine" or "cancer", it requires conscious, intelligent thought. None of that is possible without being alive in the first place. Mothers with terminally ill infants invariably are thankful for the brief moments their have with those children. They don't, as you might suggest, go sour and decide that life sucks.

I defined happiness as simply "not starving". You're trying to paint my question and position as if I'm some kind of stereotypical "latte liberal", rather than actually address it.

Do you just not have an answer?

Such people do not somehow go extinct, though. You paint other cultures with a broad brush and from a palette that only includes colors from your privileged upbringing. It's an obscene way to act morally superior, as though you can tell how successful another culture is, because you read about it once on the Internet.

I'd encourage you to actually go to these places where these people are "starving". You will still find happiness. You will still find God.

That sounds remarkably like some sort of caste system. If happiness is where God is, then the unhappy people must've surely done something somewhere to deserve it, right? Makes sense. Perhaps you should stop talking to the unhappy, they may infect you with it and remove your connection with God.

Sorry. You decided to just assume what I thought and why. I thought I'd give it a go with you.

Go order another venti soy mochaccino. The world needs your sage wisdom, naysaying all the love and hope that undeniably exists.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Well, you're an atheist so I had thought you were pretty sure there is no God. I guess you're really an agnostic.

Agnostic atheist is what I am, if you're into the label thing.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Why believe in a God that abandoned His creation then? Prayer clearly works, though it's not as easy or quick as picking up a phone.

1) I don't believe in God.
2) You saying 'clearly' doesn't make it so.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

If one is a born again child of God, why would that person ask God to heal him/her or a loved one? God has already done all He's going to do, He sent Jesus to suffer and die for the world.

Isaiah 53:5 (ESV Strong's) 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.

1 Peter 2:24 (ESV Strong's) 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

Mark 16:17-18 (ESV Strong's) 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

And just in case you're thinking, 'that's just for the people back then' it says,

Mark 16:15-16 (ESV Strong's) And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

How virtuous of you. So you know for a fact those people were good and God-fearing? Btw- the UN Peacekeepers weren't all wonderful people either.

You do realize that you're advocating God's surreptitious/secretive punishment of people you (or who you think He) disagrees with, right?

So tell me, do you think it would be admirable of me to punish my son with tragic events that literally sabotage his life, without ever telling him MYSELF why I am punishing him? And, in fact, not even letting him know that I did it , nor even letting him know it was punishment?

I don't believe that kind of behavior would be admirable (or even acceptable) at all. So... if God behaves this way - as you are CERTAINLY describing - then why would I ever follow Him? Definitely not cool. At all.

 

[DavidFirth]

Agnostic atheist is what I am, if you're into the label thing.

I'm not, really. I'm sure you know what you are better than I do so I'll just shut up about it.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

In fact, I didn't. You trying to find one example to shoot down is actually confirmation bias also.

Are you saying I was trying to shoot down the specific link to the anecdote you posted? No mate, I would apply the same scepticism to any anecdote where people claim it to have a supernatural or "other worldly" cause. UFO encounters, ghost stories, miracle claims etc., the world is full of them. Just for once though I'd like some serious data, some serious evidence of a causal link, not just people pointing at an event and claiming it as evidence for their beliefs.

Perhaps you need to have it explained to you. Would you like to go to church this weekend? I'm sure most pastors or priests could explain it to you, if you were sufficiently open-minded enough..

Sure I could go to church this weekend and ask a Christian about his/her deity, though it is a bit like going to my local Ford dealership and asking the salesman or saleswoman to recommend me a good car. Either way I'm talking to somebody trying to sell me something, they have a vested interest.

I didn't know you had God's rule book handy. You presume to know an awful lot.

You are the one telling me about the deity you believe in Grumpuss, I don't believe it exists so I presume nothing, I am going by your rules. You say the deity "intercedes as he sees fit" and that "someone addicted to drugs or unnatural activity [whatever that means] might have to put a bit of work in first". Oh yeah? You know that for certain?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Perhaps not hard enough, no.

And yet, those people continue to live somehow. Despite overwhelmingly nasty conditions of famine, pestilence and death, those people continue to live and be blessed with children. No, they don't get to drive a Toyota Prius, get the newest Android phone or tickets to Hamilton, or whatever you consider evidence of success and thriving. Your value system appears deeply flawed, if you think material wealth in heathen societies where genitals are mutilated and albinos are hunted for their "magic", is automatically bestowed.

Heathen societies...wow.

So, I've bored some people with this before, but I lived in a remote part of Papua New Guinea for a while. They have that fun intercession of ridiculously high levels of Christianity (96% in 2000), combined with the highest rates of women being brutally murdered for witchcraft. Damn heathens.

Albinos are mistreated, cannibalism is mostly gone now, thankfully.

 

[james bond]

Thanks for the sermon, ever heard of the sharpshooter fallacy? It is where you pick out events that seem to confirm your biases and beliefs, ignoring the massive number of examples that don't. There are countless people who were ill, got prayed for, and didn't recover. Was the deity asleep on those occasions or did the sinners praying lack faith, so it decided to ignore them? Whatever dude, anecdotes (no matter how many find on religious websites) do not equal data.

Some of those were miraculous recoveries. It just goes to show that atheists will not believe even with evidence. They just go by their confirmation biases. The only thing that will convince atheists is pain and suffering in my opinion. Then they start whining like mad. Look at what's happening in the US today.

 

[Grumpuss]

1) I don't believe in God.
2) You saying 'clearly' doesn't make it so.

Whoever said that your personal belief in God was a prerequisite for it to be clearly evident in others?!

You do realize that you're advocating God's surreptitious/secretive punishment of people you (or who you think He) disagrees with, right?

So tell me, do you think it would be admirable of me to punish my son with tragic events that literally sabotage his life, without ever telling him MYSELF why I am punishing him? And, in fact, not even letting him know that I did it , nor even letting him know it was punishment?

I don't believe that kind of behavior would be admirable (or even acceptable) at all. So... if God behaves this way - as you are CERTAINLY describing - then why would I ever follow Him? Definitely not cool. At all.

Non-reward does not equal "punishment". People are free to reject God, and may even thrive in life without Him.

And by referencing the U.N. peacekeepers in Bosnia, I meant that they started several brothels and sex-trades to service the people over there. Not exactly in the spirit of selfless unity and peace.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

Some of those were miraculous recoveries. It just goes to show that atheists will not believe even with evidence. They just go by their confirmation biases. The only thing that will convince atheists is pain and suffering in my opinion. Then they start whining like mad. Look at what's happening in the US today.

Dunno what you're talking about dude, put up your evidence and I'll give it fair play.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Whoever said that your personal belief in God was a prerequisite for it to be clearly evident in others?!

No-one. Including me. For good reason, too, since it's not.
My point was entirely in response to you saying 'Why believe in a God that abandoned his creation then?'

I don't. You'd have to ask a Deist.

 

[Grumpuss]

No-one. Including me. For good reason, too, since it's not.
My point was entirely in response to you saying 'Why believe in a God that abandoned his creation then?'

I don't. You'd have to ask a Deist.

Circular logic. Try being more open-minded.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Circular logic. Try being more open-minded.

Circular logic?

I am an atheist. Yes?
I am not the right person to ask how belief in a non-interventionist God can be justified, or worthwhile, or whatever. I have no issue with Deism, or Pantheism, or Panentheism. But I am the wrong person to ask about why they believe what they believe.

Should I ask you why Hindus believe in Shiva?

It's neither judgement nor circular logic. It's basic fact. Why you'd want to make that into a point of contention is beyond me, but whatever.

*Shrugs*

 

[Grumpuss]

Circular logic?

I am an atheist. Yes?
I am not the right person to ask how belief in a non-interventionist God can be justified, or worthwhile, or whatever. I have no issue with Deism, or Pantheism, or Panentheism. But I am the wrong person to ask about why they believe what they believe.

Yet you have an opinion. Other peoples' beliefs don't meet with your own world view, so you deny that it's possible.

Should I ask you why Hindus believe in Shiva?

Sure.

It's neither judgement nor circular logic. It's basic fact. Why you'd want to make that into a point of contention is beyond me, but whatever.

*Shrugs*

You're the one insisting that because you're an atheist, self-evident facts, whether I point them out or not, aren't clear. That's circular logic. Whether it's a judgment of yours, I can't say. Probably.