Predestination?

[sandy whitelinger]

This is an ancient discussion that will have most evangelicals [and or] protestants going in circles.

I'll give them a Klondike bar if they figure out the whole Predestination thing. As for faith.....

I'll bring the popcorn.

 

[Milton Platt]

In my early days of being a narrow-minded Biblist I surmised that the paths were predetermined but man had a choice. After years of Don Quixote like attempts at trying to splain otherwise, I have come to see that some people just ain't gunna understand faith. It's like they're unequiped to process it.

What say you?

isn't faith as explained in the bible simply belief in something even though you lack sufficient evidence? Likewise, how can all things be predetermined and yet there are choices to be made?

 

[Milton Platt]

This is an ancient discussion that will have most evangelicals [and or] protestants going in circles.

I'll give them a Klondike bar if they figure out the whole Predestination thing. As for faith.....

Interesting avatar.....you need more sun......LOL

 

[sandy whitelinger]

isn't faith as explained in the bible simply belief in something even though you lack sufficient evidence? Likewise, how can all things be predetermined and yet there are choices to be made?

A choice needs, by nature, at least two things to choose from. To the person who sees faith as so much tissue paper, there is no choice.

 

[Milton Platt]

A choice needs, by nature, at least two things to choose from. To the person who sees faith as so much tissue paper, there is no choice.

I tend to agree. I mean, we do make choices, of course. But those choices are influenced by our culture, our personal history, even our individual genetic makeup. so how much "free will" is there, really?

 

[sandy whitelinger]

I tend to agree. I mean, we do make choices, of course. But those choices are influenced by our culture, our personal history, even our individual genetic makeup. so how much "free will" is there, really?

Free will is found within. Waiting for the effects to emerge is tedious.

 

[Milton Platt]

Free will is found within. Waiting for the effects to emerge is tedious.

Not understanding your post. Free will is the ability to make choices without undue influence, right? If you are influenced from within and without, how do you have true free will?
In the case of many (and certainly the Christian) religions, free will is not really an option. That religion consists of coersion and vacuous promises. (did I spell coersion correctly? even spellchecker choked on it).

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Not understanding your post. Free will is the ability to make choices without undue influence, right? If you are influenced from within and without, how do you have true free will?
In the case of many (and certainly the Christian) religions, free will is not really an option. That religion consists of coersion and vacuous promises. (did I spell coersion correctly? even spellchecker choked on it).

Free will is not a manifestation of the natural world. Cause and effect does not allow for free will. The only place to have free will is not in the natural world. Therefore, freewill exists where the natural world does not exist. By looking within you will find that place...By faith.

It's the place where you meet God.

 

[Faithofchristian]

In my early days of being a narrow-minded Biblist I surmised that the paths were predetermined but man had a choice. After years of Don Quixote like attempts at trying to splain otherwise, I have come to see that some people just ain't gunna understand faith. It's like they're unequiped to process it.

What say you?

Your right, that the paths were predetermined, but man had a choice.

All humans were predestine, before we all came to be here on earth. And now we do have a choice into which path we walk down.
And the path we choose lays Our Fate ?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Right, when your ignorant about things all you have to go on is faith.

Or say I don't know.

 

[Nakosis]

Or say I don't know.

Sure, but that doesn't much help with your ignorance does it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Christ is predestined, not individuals. Ephesians 1:11 "In him we were also chosen..." The person who abides in the vine is part of the vine like a leaf, but the vine does not need them to exist. It is predestined, but they are not. Ephesians 1:5 "...he predestined us for adoption through sonship..." same thing here. Similarly John 15:5 "I am the vine. You are the branches..."

If you had started at the beginning of Chapter 1 of Ephesians, You would haved found in Verse 4--"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

This means God Predestinated us before the foundation of this world ever came to be. This being way before the six day creation of male and female.

Verse 5--"Having Predestination us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Therefore God Predestinated us, unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself.

This was way before the six day creation of male and female ever came to be. That God Predestinated us to come into this world.

Ok, so seeing God Predestinated us, That means we were with God, Before God predestinated us to come into this second earth age.

Note back in Genesis 1:26--"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

So who do you think God is talking to, If not us?

God Predestinated us to come into this world way before the foundation of this world ever came to be, That thru the six day creation of male and female, God Predestinated us to come thru.
As written in Ephesians
Chapter 1 Verse's 4-11

 

[Faithofchristian]

I am a Latter-Day Saint and we believe that the whole of Mankind are God's literal spirit children and that we dwelt with God in His Kingdom before being sent to this world.

Even though we all entered into this world as innocent babes, our spirits still harbor the personalities, attributes, strengths and weaknesses that we had in the world before this one.

God loves us all and taught us what we needed to know before coming here, but each of us are individuals, with differences of perception and opinion.

Therefore, it is only natural that there would be those among us in this world that would refuse to live their lives on faith.

It all depends on how well we prepared before we came to this world.

This is not to say that our experiences in this mortal life cannot change us, but we need to understand that none of us were completely clean slates when we came here (personality-wise).

That's what the Bible speaks about,
the 3 earth ages.

The first earth age, is where we and the dinosaurs were at. That now we find the dinosaurs bones from that first earth age.
The first earth age, is where Satan started his rebillion against God. And God destroyed that first earth age, because of Satan's rebellion. That now we find the dinosaurs bones in the earth, being witnesses to that first earth age.

We ourselves were spirit beings in the first earth age, and God Predestinated us to be here in this second earth age.

This is what Jesus and Nicodemus were talking about in their conversation in John 3:3-6 in being born again, Where we were spirit beings, in the first earth age, that now we are born again into this second earth age, thru the womb of our Mothers. Being born again thru the water from our mother's womb.

Paul speaks about this in the book of Ephesians 1:1-11
Verse 4--"According as he ( God ) has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

Therefore God Predestinated us to this world before the foundation of this world ever came to be, that we should be without blame, because of Satan's rebellion in the first earth age. So there are two paths being laid out before us, one path leads to life everlasting, and the other path leads to death and destruction of Satan. We all have our choice as to which path we choose to follow.
God is not holding any one of us to blame of Satan's rebellion back in the first earth age, but God will hold us responsible for what path we choose in this second earth age.

Verse 5--"Having Predestination us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Therefore God predestinated us to this second earth age. To where we were spirit beings in the first earth age, that now we have been born again of the water thru the womb of out mother's, into this second earth age.

That at the second coming of Christ Jesus the third earth age will be ushered in.

 

[Faithofchristian]

I haven't ruled out reincarnation
somethings I do.... I do very well.....as if my hands already know how

but I don't recall a previous life

so I say.....we are here to learn all that we can
then present ourselves to God and heaven
(see first line of Job)

As you said " you don't recall a previous life"

This is why Peter wrote in his second letter, I now write unto you: in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance.
2nd Peter 3:1.

Peter and all the other disciples and including the Prophet's in the old testaments, are trying to bring back to our remembrance about the first earth age, As to what happen, that brought us to be here in this second earth age.

God is not in no way holding any of us responsible for Satan's rebellion back in the first earth age.
But however God will hold us responsible for what we do here in this second earth age.

There are two paths that are laid out before all of us, one path will lead to life everlasting to Christ Jesus, And the other path will lead to death and destruction to Satan.
That it all depends on You, Your choice which path you chose ?

 

[Brickjectivity]

If you had started at the beginning of Chapter 1 of Ephesians, You would haved found in Verse 4--"According as he has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

This means God Predestinated us before the foundation of this world ever came to be. This being way before the six day creation of male and female.

Verse 5--"Having Predestination us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Therefore God Predestinated us, unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself.

This was way before the six day creation of male and female ever came to be. That God Predestinated us to come into this world.

Ok, so seeing God Predestinated us, That means we were with God, Before God predestinated us to come into this second earth age.

Note back in Genesis 1:26--"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

So who do you think God is talking to, If not us?

God Predestinated us to come into this world way before the foundation of this world ever came to be, That thru the six day creation of male and female, God Predestinated us to come thru.
As written in Ephesians
Chapter 1 Verse's 4-11

Denial of self is an overlooked doctrine that is directly taught by Jesus in the gospels and expounded by Paul. It has everything to do with it.

 

[Faithofchristian]

Denial of self is an overlooked doctrine that is directly taught by Jesus in the gospels and expounded by Paul. It has everything to do with it.

Can you explain yourself, on what your trying to say, which I don't see that it has anything to do with what I posted.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

That's what the Bible speaks about,
the 3 earth ages.

The first earth age, is where we and the dinosaurs once were at. The now we find the dinosaurs bones from that first earth age.
The first earth age, is where Satan started his rebillion against God. And God destroyed that first earth age, because of Satan's rebellion. That now we find the dinosaurs bones that are witnesses to that first earth age.

We ourselves were spirit beings in the first earth age, and God Predestinated us to be here in this second earth age.

This is what Jesus and Nicodemus were talking about in John 3:3-6 in being born again, Where we were spirit beings, in the first earth age, that now we are born again into this second earth age, thru the womb of our Mothers. Being born again thru the water from our mother's womb.

Paul speaks about this in the book of Ephesians 1:1-11
Verse 4--"According as he ( God ) has chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love"

Therefore God Predestinated us to this world before the foundation of this world ever came to be, that we should be without blame, because of Satan's rebellion in the first earth age. So there are two paths being laid out before us, one path leads to life everlasting, and the other path leads to death and destruction of Satan. We all have our choice as to which path we choose to follow.
God is not holding any one of us to blame of Satan's rebellion back in the first earth age, but God will hold us responsible for what path we choose in this second earth age.

Verse 5--"Having Predestination us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

Therefore God predestinated us to this second earth age. To where we were spirit beings in the first earth age, that now we have been born again of the water thru the womb of out mother's, into this second earth age.

That at the second coming of Christ Jesus the third earth age will be ushered in.

That's sum crazy *hit.

 

[Quiddity]

@sandy whitelinger - May come as a bit of a shocker but Catholics do believe in predestination, but it's most definitely not the same as Calvin.

God can only be said to antecedently will the salvation of all. His effective and consequent will He elects some to salvation, according to His good pleasure. That's always a mind twister for some folks, but I'll let you sit with that first.

So in essence, it's mostly certainly a gift, but it's still available to all. But it has to be understood in the context of how God's will operates in relation with people.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

@sandy whitelinger - May come as a bit of a shocker but Catholics do believe in predestination, but it's most definitely not the same as Calvin.

God can only be said to antecedently will the salvation of all. His effective and consequent will He elects some to salvation, according to His good pleasure. That's always a mind twister for some folks, but I'll let you sit with that first.

So in essence, it's mostly certainly a gift, but it's still available to all. But it has to be understood in the context of how God's will operates in relation with people.

I understand all that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Denial of self is an overlooked doctrine that is directly taught by Jesus in the gospels and expounded by Paul. It has everything to do with it.

I think it is certainly overlooked in American culture which is very materialistic and focused on physical pleasure, the exact opposite of what Jesus and Paul taught. If people want to be close to God, denial of self is the whole ball game. My favorite verses....

Matthew 16:24-26 “Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?”