Predestination

[dawny0826]

Since I was overly happy and practically absurd yesterday, I decided to start a more serious thread today. I however must leave soon, so I'm going to keep it short and may possibly edit a more updated version.

Basically, I was raised a Christian and denounced my faith in that about three or four years ago. So I can't help but think about certain things. Predestination is one of them. I can't help but think that with my "chosen" path that if the Christian God is real, then I was predestined to an afterlife in hell. I mean, God is all knowing after all. This, in turn, raises some questions I have about the fall of Lucifer, but I simply must go and will update that later. So be sure to check back here (this exact post on the first page) later. Thanks all!

EDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, so now I'm going to finish what I started saying. Basically, on the thought of predestination, wouldn't that mean that God created Satan as an adversary? I mean, if there were no demons then there would be no sin - nothing to tempt us. We'd be perfect, which would mean that we'd all go to heaven and there would be no need for hell. So I think God created hell knowing that he was going to cast Lucifer down. I just want to know what other peoples thoughts on this are.

I believe in predestination only in the sense that your future is foreseen to God and certain aspects of your life may occur because He's willed the occurrence but I believe we all are given free will...and to some small degree the statement "you control your destiny" does fly.

Free will has been in existance, imho, since the beginning...Satan chose to defy God...

Was this predestined? Only in the sense that God probably KNEW that it would occur.

Still...Satan was making a choice for himself.

We make choices for ourselves. Anyone who is predestined for hell...is predestined only in the sense that God knows in advance the path that one ultimately takes for themselves.

Every individual is given a choice...no one can be forced to accept Christ. On the flipside...no one can really be forced to reject Christ...spiritually speaking...we all have the free will to accept Christ as truth or not...

 

[zombieharlot]

I dunno, but for years I've wondered if I had to leave religion in order to find God. Maybe you're on that path now, for all I know.

I think if I had stayed in the Church, I would've spent my life mindlessly going through the motions, and not actually believing in any of it. Hm, except the basic ethics are workable. Other than that, nada.

Which is exactly why I denounced my faith in the first place.

 

[zombieharlot]

I don't believe in predestination. The thought that this is some silly game that God is putting us through where we have no effect on the outcome is absurd to me.

Either way you look at it it's a game. Let me flip it for you. Since it was just recently Easter I'll stick with that theme. God is just a giant Easter egg and he put us all here to see which of us are and aren't smart enough to find him.

 

[dawny0826]

Either way you look at it it's a game. Let me flip it for you. Since it was just recently Easter I'll stick with that theme. God is just a giant Easter egg and he put us all here to see which of us are and aren't smart enough to find him.

I see it more as we're little tiny Easter eggs...and we have the ability to choose what color food coloring we're dunked into...:flower2:

 

[zombieharlot]

I don't believe in calvinistic predestination. But i do believe that God already knows the eternal destination each and every one of us. God knowing what we will choose does not mean that God causes us to choose what we choose.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

How is there anything different from that? If he already knows who is damned, then they are already damned in his eyes (Yes, I know! I'm a genius for thinking that). And in that sense, why create us? He created us to be with Him, but if He knows who is and isn't going to hell then why not just create those who will go on to be with him?

 

[zombieharlot]

I believe in predestination only in the sense that your future is foreseen to God and certain aspects of your life may occur because He's willed the occurrence but I believe we all are given free will...and to some small degree the statement "you control your destiny" does fly.

Free will has been in existance, imho, since the beginning...Satan chose to defy God...

Was this predestined? Only in the sense that God probably KNEW that it would occur.

Still...Satan was making a choice for himself.

We make choices for ourselves. Anyone who is predestined for hell...is predestined only in the sense that God knows in advance the path that one ultimately takes for themselves.

Every individual is given a choice...no one can be forced to accept Christ. On the flipside...no one can really be forced to reject Christ...spiritually speaking...we all have the free will to accept Christ as truth or not...

I see what you're saying and you've been more thorough and clear than anyone else, so thanks! I just don't understand why He would even bother putting us here if he knows we're going to hell.

 

[zombieharlot]

I see it more as we're little tiny Easter eggs...and we have the ability to choose what color food coloring we're dunked into...:flower2:

I'm not sure I follow you on that one though.

 

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

IF there is a God, and IF that god is Omniscient, and Omnipotent, then it seems only logical that said God created many of us knowing full well what will be the ultimate destination of each and every soul, as well as possessing the power to make all of those souls go to Heaven if He chose.

He is all powerful and all knowing and knowingly created many of us in spite of knowing many would suffer and die on Earth, some only to suffer for all of eternity in Hell. If I control everything (omnipotents) and know what the outcome will be (omniscience) then how could the individuals involved be anything but predestined for their particular end result?

B.

 

[dawny0826]

IF there is a God, and IF that god is Omniscient, and Omnipotent, then it seems only logical that said God created many of us knowing full well what will be the ultimate destination of each and every soul, as well as possessing the power to make all of those souls go to Heaven if He chose.

He is all powerful and all knowing and knowingly created many of us in spite of knowing many would suffer and die on Earth, some only to suffer for all of eternity in Hell. If I control everything (omnipotents) and know what the outcome will be (omniscience) then how could the individuals involved be anything but predestined for their particular end result?

B.

I think God knows what the end result would be...but because we're here...in the flesh...with the ability to think and interact...we make the choices along the way that determine the outcome...

I view it as...He simply KNOWS the outcome before we do...doesn't mean that He's dictating the outcoming...

I do believe that certain things may come to be because He's willed it...but still...during much of our lives...we decide what we do or don't do...

We have free will...

 

[dawny0826]

I'm not sure I follow you on that one though.

I'm not really surprised...

That wasn't the best way to put it...was it?:biglaugh:

 

[dawny0826]

I see what you're saying and you've been more thorough and clear than anyone else, so thanks! I just don't understand why He would even bother putting us here if he knows we're going to hell.

But hell doesn't have to be a reality for anyone...

He put us here initially...to live in harmony directly WITH him...to commune with him...

Remember, in the Garden of Eden...man failed God. Adam and Eve brought hell into the equation for us.

And Christ offers us redemption...if we accept it.

Knowing this...I think of it more (and don't worry...I won't be comparing us to little Easter Eggs )...if we wind up burning in hell...we have no one to blame but ourselves...

Blaming God or even Satan for that matter...just doesn't fly...the truth has been presented and we have an entire lifetime...no matter how long or short that may be to decide where our loyalty lies and where we will spend eternity.

Blood was shed for you, so that hell doesn't have to be a reality for you. This was extended for everyone.

God didn't damn us...we damn ourselves...by our own choices and actions.

Edit: I didn't say that directly to you, per se...I meant that as a general statement.

 

[zombieharlot]

I'm not really surprised...

That wasn't the best way to put it...was it?:biglaugh:

:biglaugh: I think I get what you mean now. We choose what color to be with our free will.

 

[dawny0826]

:biglaugh: I think I get what you mean now. We choose what color to be with our free will.

Yay! I did make sense! (okay...barely...)

I rock! :jam:

 

[zombieharlot]

Remember, in the Garden of Eden...man failed God. Adam and Eve brought hell into the equation for us.

It seems to me though that hell shouldn't have existed for them to bring into the equation in the first place. God knew Lucifer would fall just as he knew some of us would as well.

 

[dawny0826]

It seems to me though that hell shouldn't have existed for them to bring into the equation in the first place. God knew Lucifer would fall just as he knew some of us would as well.

It had to exist.

Satan defied God. Hell was designed as Satan's punishment.

Then...man defied God...

I mean...there's Christ or Satan...no in betweens...you allow Satan to drag you down with him or you opt for eternal life...

It may not seem fair...but chastisement and punishment has been a theme that has existed from the get go...if one defies God...there are consequencs.

On the flip side...if one obeys God...there are consequences (and these don't involve frying.):162:

 

[zombieharlot]

Hell was designed as Satan's punishment.

Exactly my point. God created hell because he knew he was going to put Satan there.

 

[dawny0826]

Exactly my point. God created hell because he knew he was going to put Satan there.

Yes...but hell would not have been a reality had Satan not decided to defy God.

Man "fell" as well...with the first acts of defiance in the Garden of Eden.

So at that point...hell became an issue for us as well. It may not have initially been created for us but it became a reality when man was tainted.

And as it is (according to the Bible)...we are each either of Christ or of Satan...there are no in betweens.

And the fact that we have a choice in the matter is a pretty nifty concept...or at least it is to me...anyway.:angel2:

 

[zombieharlot]

Yes...but hell would not have been a reality had Satan not decided to defy God.

Man "fell" as well...with the first acts of defiance in the Garden of Eden.

So at that point...hell became an issue for us as well. It may not have initially been created for us but it became a reality when man was tainted.

And as it is (according to the Bible)...we are each either of Christ or of Satan...there are no in betweens.

And the fact that we have a choice in the matter is a pretty nifty concept...or at least it is to me...anyway.:angel2:

There's something that's just not quite satisfying me with your answers. So I think we had better end it because otherwise I think we'll just be running around in circles. Agreed?

 

[dawny0826]

There's something that's just not quite satisfying me with your answers. So I think we had better end it because otherwise I think we'll just be running around in circles. Agreed?

Agreed.

 

[gnostic]

Ok. Here is an example, which I'd like some people's thoughts on.

Take Judas' betrayal, for instance. The gospels seemed to indicate someone need to betray Jesus in order for him to be crucified and later resurrected. If you look at in that way, then Judas was destinied to be the traitor.

If it was preordined as the NT say, then did Judas really have any free-will? Could he have chosen another path?

It seemed to me that he didn't have much of a choice. What do you think?

And if Judas had chosen not to betray Jesus, wouldn't that mean another traitor would be chosen from the other apostles?