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Predestination

Z

zombieharlot

Some Kind of Strange
gnostic said:
Ok. Here is an example, which I'd like some people's thoughts on.

Take Judas' betrayal, for instance. The gospels seemed to indicate someone need to betray Jesus in order for him to be crucified and later resurrected. If you look at in that way, then Judas was destinied to be the traitor.

If it was preordined as the NT say, then did Judas really have any free-will? Could he have chosen another path?

It seemed to me that he didn't have much of a choice. What do you think?

And if Judas had chosen not to betray Jesus, wouldn't that mean another traitor would be chosen from the other apostles?
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That's very interesting. Goes along well with what I'm trying to say.
 
Mike182

Mike182

Flaming Queer
zombieharlot said:
Okay, so now I'm going to finish what I started saying. Basically, on the thought of predestination, wouldn't that mean that God created Satan as an adversary? I mean, if there were no demons then there would be no sin - nothing to tempt us. We'd be perfect, which would mean that we'd all go to heaven and there would be no need for hell. So I think God created hell knowing that he was going to cast Lucifer down. I just want to know what other peoples thoughts on this are.
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so?

that implies that God created the possibility of us to choose evil, it says nothing about our free will (or lack there of)
 
CrystalSnow

CrystalSnow

Member
Obviously, as stated in the previous comments, not every Christian believes in presdestination. I personally don't.

I personally classify predistination as God picking who's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell. God doens't pick, we do. It's because of our own decisions where we wind up.

Bye the way...this is Stina
 
Buttons*

Buttons*

Glass half Panda'd
CrystalSnow said:
Obviously, as stated in the previous comments, not every Christian believes in presdestination. I personally don't.

I personally classify predistination as God picking who's going to Heaven and who's going to Hell. God doens't pick, we do. It's because of our own decisions where we wind up.

Bye the way...this is Stina
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*waves hand* HI Stina! :D

Welcome :p
 
Katzpur

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
zombieharlot said:
Since I was overly happy and practically absurd yesterday, I decided to start a more serious thread today. I however must leave soon, so I'm going to keep it short and may possibly edit a more updated version.

Basically, I was raised a Christian and denounced my faith in that about three or four years ago. So I can't help but think about certain things. Predestination is one of them. I can't help but think that with my "chosen" path that if the Christian God is real, then I was predestined to an afterlife in hell. I mean, God is all knowing after all. This, in turn, raises some questions I have about the fall of Lucifer, but I simply must go and will update that later. So be sure to check back here (this exact post on the first page) later. Thanks all!

EDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDITEDIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, so now I'm going to finish what I started saying. Basically, on the thought of predestination, wouldn't that mean that God created Satan as an adversary? I mean, if there were no demons then there would be no sin - nothing to tempt us. We'd be perfect, which would mean that we'd all go to heaven and there would be no need for hell. So I think God created hell knowing that he was going to cast Lucifer down. I just want to know what other peoples thoughts on this are.
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This would all make perfect sense if I believed in pre-destination, but I don't. I don't believe that God created any of us just to turn around and banish us to an eternity in Hell. I believe Satan/Lucifer rebelled with full knowledge of what he was doing and what the consequences would be. He didn't care; it was essentially his own choice to be damned. I don't believe God made it happen or found any joy in seeing it happen.
 
Z

zombieharlot

Some Kind of Strange
Katzpur said:
This would all make perfect sense if I believed in pre-destination, but I don't. I don't believe that God created any of us just to turn around and banish us to an eternity in Hell. I believe Satan/Lucifer rebelled with full knowledge of what he was doing and what the consequences would be. He didn't care; it was essentially his own choice to be damned. I don't believe God made it happen or found any joy in seeing it happen.
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Why does everyone seem to think that I'm saying, "God makes us do this. God makes us do that."? That's not what I mean. I simply mean that he creates people with full knowledge of what their choices are and if they will go to hell or not. And I personally think he's kind of an a** (not trying to offend anyone, just stating an opinion) for creating people knowing those things.
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
zombieharlot said:
Why does everyone seem to think that I'm saying, "God makes us do this. God makes us do that."? That's not what I mean. I simply mean that he creates people with full knowledge of what their choices are and if they will go to hell or not. And I personally think he's kind of an a** (not trying to offend anyone, just stating an opinion) for creating people knowing those things.
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Well, if you are mad (or even just annoyed) at God, you're just being honest. As crystal pointed out, not everyone believes in predestination the way you present it, that some are going to hell and God knows and doesn't do anything about it, such as keeping you from being born in the first place.

Does not make sense to me. I think heaven, hell and salvation refer to our relationship with God in this life, and in the afterlife, well, see you then! We'll all be there.

2 c,
lunamoth
 
Z

zombieharlot

Some Kind of Strange
lunamoth said:
I think heaven, hell and salvation refer to our relationship with God in this life, and in the afterlife, well, see you then! We'll all be there.
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I'm a little confused about what you mean here. How can you have a relationship with God if you're in hell?
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
zombieharlot said:
I'm a little confused about what you mean here. How can you have a relationship with God if you're in hell?
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Ah right, sorry. Hell would be the choice to not have a relationship with God.

lunamoth
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
zombieharlot said:
You're the one that said it! You said you'll see me on the other side. Unless you're going to hell, I don't think you will.
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Yes, sorry. I caught myself with another post.

I don't believe in hell as a place souls go to after death. I think we all achieve reunion with God after death. But, in this life we make choices that affect how we see ourselves, each other and the world. A relationship with God, and the character of our relationship with God, IMO shapes these choices in a way that brings us into the Kingdom of God in this life, and as we are transformed we also help transform the world, bringing it closer to the KOG as well.

lunamoth
 
lunamoth

lunamoth

Will to love
zombieharlot said:
Okay. Now we're on the same page.
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Actually, you do have a relationship with God as it seems you are mad at him for what you view as grave injustice. I'd say that's a good start.

Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled.

No offense intended. It's just that I greatly appreciate where you are coming from.

peace,
lunamoth
 
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