Predestination

[zombieharlot]

well , as one of JW i know that the bible does not teach litral hellfire , so no one is going there anyway,
True, God can foresee certain events, but in many cases, he has chosen not to use his foreknowledge. Because God is almighty, he is free to exercise his abilities as he wishes, not according to the wishes of imperfect humans.
Christ told his disciples to preach the good news to all mankind. If God has already chosen the ones to be saved, would this not dampen the zeal Christians show in evangelizing? Would it not make the preaching work essentially pointless? yes God has a number of 144,000 who will be going to heaven , this is a number of people, but they are not individually predetermined, but the number is predetermined, but those who will inherit the earth are without number

I'm not saying that God is choosing who will be saved. I'm simply saying that he already knows what choices we will make, therefor He knows whether or not we will go to heaven or hell. So preaching wouldn't be pointless because that is part of the choices that God knows we'll make. Someone could preach to me tomorrow and completely change my life from that point on. And so, even though I'm not in any kind of walk with God right now, I would still be predestined to heaven because He would know of that interaction.

 

[may]

I'm not saying that God is choosing who will be saved. I'm simply saying that he already knows what choices we will make, therefor He knows whether or not we will go to heaven or hell. So preaching wouldn't be pointless because that is part of the choices that God knows we'll make. Someone could preach to me tomorrow and completely change my life from that point on. And so, even though I'm not in any kind of walk with God right now, I would still be predestined to heaven because He would know of that interaction.

Jehovah has not fixed our destiny
that depends on the choices we make

 

[Mykola]

...
Basically, I was raised a Christian and denounced my faith in that about three or four years ago.

Come back any time...

So I can't help but think about certain things. Predestination is one of them. I can't help but think that with my "chosen" path that if the Christian God is real, then I was predestined to an afterlife in hell.

No, you wasn't.
Get predestination out of your head, friend.

Basically, on the thought of predestination, wouldn't that mean that God created Satan as an adversary?

No.

I mean, if there were no demons then there would be no sin - nothing to tempt us.

Such "if"'s are leading nowhere...

So I think God created hell knowing that he was going to cast Lucifer down.

No, He didn't do that in that way.

Want to contemplate on the Good and Evil problem? - Open a new thread.

 

[Opethian]

Hey, since all of you seem interested in predestination, and predestination implies either the absence of free will or the guidance of our choices by some divine entity, why don't you come to my Free Will thread to debate on whether free will exists or not .

 

[zombieharlot]

Jehovah has not fixed our destiny
that depends on the choices we make

Here's what I'm getting at: ultimately, I am the one that forges my path toward heaven or hell. And by the concept of what many people believe to be God I am currently forging a path to hell; I am defective. Now why would God create something that would choose to rebel against Him? Would you create something with defective components?

 

[zombieharlot]

Come back any time...



No, you wasn't.
Get predestination out of your head, friend.



No.



Such "if"'s are leading nowhere...



No, He didn't do that in that way.

Want to contemplate on the Good and Evil problem? - Open a new thread.

You seem to be demanding a lot of me without presenting anything. Don't tell me what to do.

 

[zombieharlot]

Hey, since all of you seem interested in predestination, and predestination implies either the absence of free will or the guidance of our choices by some divine entity, why don't you come to my Free Will thread to debate on whether free will exists or not .

Hey!!! This isn't a competition! This isn't commercial advertisement! Don't detract from my thread!!!:tsk:

 

[Opethian]

Hey!!! This isn't a competition! This isn't commercial advertisement! Don't detract from my thread!!!:tsk:

It's just been a bit slow in my thread lately, and it's not like if people post in my thread that they won't post in yours, and since they're talking about free will already...

 

[zombieharlot]

It's just been a bit slow in my thread lately, and it's not like if people post in my thread that they won't post in yours, and since they're talking about free will already...

Yeh, whatever...:sarcastic

 

[steelblue75]

great googly moogly! get out of my head zombie!:slap:

i keep tryin to use analogies to get my view on predestination out there but no one seems to understand a train on a track cant move off the track... unless it wrecks which would be bad... unless the train was full of nuns and somehow dont ask me how it all works out well in the end... *looks through book of nun jokes*

now before ya get bent outta shape im kidding i dont wanna kill a bunch of nuns..... wouldnt mind doing virgin sacrifices but this isnt the board for that...:cover:

back to the point im easily distracted..... was that a plane? like you said zombie if god is all knowing and all seeing and knows what path i will take before im BORN then where in all that wisdom am i given free will? just because he doesnt force you into the choice doesnt mean its gonna change *refer to train analogy now*

*wonders if im making sense its late and i havent been drinking*

 

[zombieharlot]

great googly moogly! get out of my head zombie!:slap:

i keep tryin to use analogies to get my view on predestination out there but no one seems to understand a train on a track cant move off the track... unless it wrecks which would be bad... unless the train was full of nuns and somehow dont ask me how it all works out well in the end... *looks through book of nun jokes*

now before ya get bent outta shape im kidding i dont wanna kill a bunch of nuns..... wouldnt mind doing virgin sacrifices but this isnt the board for that...:cover:

back to the point im easily distracted..... was that a plane? like you said zombie if god is all knowing and all seeing and knows what path i will take before im BORN then where in all that wisdom am i given free will? just because he doesnt force you into the choice doesnt mean its gonna change *refer to train analogy now*

*wonders if im making sense its late and i havent been drinking*

I understand what you've said better when I don't apply the train analogy. I think.... Are you simply agreeing with me?

 

[Mykola]

You seem to be demanding a lot of me without presenting anything. Don't tell me what to do.

1. Demanding? I'm not native speaker, so I could be mistaken about the meaning of the word... I don't see how it was that I was demanding something of you.

2. I don't tell you what to do, friend. Do you interact with all commercials in a paper you read in the morning? "Don't tell me what to drink!", "don't tell me what to wear!", "don't...".

I want this to be crystal clear: I'm not telling anyone what to do, you being no exclusion to this.

3. You are not predestined to go to Hell.

Re-read the book of Jonah, please (this is just a proposition ). Pay attention to the prophecy about Nineveh and non-fulfillment of it. People of Nineveh were doomed, but it wasn't final - they had repented, and the prophecised punishment was withdrawn.

 

[zombieharlot]

Forgive my harshness. I will look into it. Any particular chapter or chapters?

 

[zombieharlot]

Hmm...I realize it's pretty short. I'll just read the whole thing.

 

[Mykola]

Hmm...I realize it's pretty short. I'll just read the whole thing.

It would be perfect!
The book is very short one, but has much meaning. I would be glad to try to answer your questions if any.

Then, I want to supply with some more information to consider...

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. (Jer 29.11)"


For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! (Ezek 18.32)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3.9)

 

[zombieharlot]

It would be perfect!
The book is very short one, but has much meaning. I would be glad to try to answer your questions if any.

Then, I want to supply with some more information to consider...

"For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will listen to you. You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart. (Jer 29.11)"


For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live! (Ezek 18.32)
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3.9)

I like you! You're one of the only persons that actually showed me stuff from the Bible to make your point! This is what I would've liked to see on your first post.

 

[Mykola]

I like you! You're one of the only persons that actually showed me stuff from the Bible to make your point! This is what I would've liked to see on your first post.

Thank you for the lesson
I'll try my best to support my assertions in the future.

 

[may]

Here's what I'm getting at: ultimately, I am the one that forges my path toward heaven or hell. And by the concept of what many people believe to be God I am currently forging a path to hell; I am defective. Now why would God create something that would choose to rebel against Him? Would you create something with defective components?

yes you are right, you and i are making our own paths , we either listen and follow the bible instructions, or we dont, i am glad that Jehovah did not make us robots, only programed to go one way, but following Jehovahs instructions will lead to everlasting life . as he created us he knows what is best for us. and yes we are ALL defective , what an imperfect lot we are, because our first parents made the wrong choice. but no worries Jehovah has it all in hand , he is leading all mankind back to the right path. if we want it of course. as we were not created as robots we have free will.
Yes, God implanted in us the faculty of freedom of choice. It was indeed a wonderful gift from him
God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good." (Genesis 1:31) The Bible also says of God: "Perfect is his activity." (Deuteronomy 32:4)
I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk."—Isaiah 48:17. yes sticking to Gods laws leads to everlasting life
humans were not created to be independent of their Maker and be successful. The prophet Jeremiah says: "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. Correct me, O Jehovah." (Jeremiah 10:23, 24) So in every way humans were created to live under God’s rulership, not their own............... other wise it would go wrong...............and it has.................. we are ruining the earth

 

[zombieharlot]

yes you are right, you and i are making our own paths , we either listen and follow the bible instructions, or we dont, i am glad that Jehovah did not make us robots, only programed to go one way, but following Jehovahs instructions will lead to everlasting life . as he created us he knows what is best for us. and yes we are ALL defective , what an imperfect lot we are, because our first parents made the wrong choice. but no worries Jehovah has it all in hand , he is leading all mankind back to the right path. if we want it of course. as we were not created as robots we have free will.
Yes, God implanted in us the faculty of freedom of choice. It was indeed a wonderful gift from him
God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good." (Genesis 1:31) The Bible also says of God: "Perfect is his activity." (Deuteronomy 32:4)
I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk."—Isaiah 48:17. yes sticking to Gods laws leads to everlasting life
humans were not created to be independent of their Maker and be successful. The prophet Jeremiah says: "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step. Correct me, O Jehovah." (Jeremiah 10:23, 24) So in every way humans were created to live under God’s rulership, not their own............... other wise it would go wrong...............and it has.................. we are ruining the earth

Okay, let me bring something new to the table because this is what I struggle with the most and is ultimately why I've brought this topic up in the first place. I basically feel like I am a walking contradiction to God/Jehovah. With every pore on my body I contrast with what the Bible teaches. I am a horrible person and I deserve to be punished. At least, that's how I feel under the watchful eye of God. If I knew for sure that God didn't exist, I would be a lot happier because I know in my heart that I truly am a good person. I personally think God screwed me over because in order to engage in a relationship with Him, I would have to give up the things I love - the things that define me. The fear of God is embedded so deep and tightly inside of me that I wish I had never known of the concept of God. I wish I could be everything I am now, but without knowing Him or any other type of god. That way I could start fresh. That way I could look into other religions with an open mind. But I can't now. I always have this fiending thought that if I look into other religions that God is going smite me. But I guess I can't know for sure unless I look deeper into those other religions. Which is why I'm here. But anyway, I was born into a Christian home and raised by my Christian mother. THAT I cannot help. Under her roof, God was so embedded into me that I grew sick of religion. I grew to hate religion. And growing sick and tired of it wasn't the sole purpose of me hating it. The more I discovered about myself the more I realized that I completely contrast with everything. Now, who I am isn't a choice of mine. What I do with who I am is what's in my power. The fact that who I am isn't in my power is what makes me feel cheated. That's what makes me feel like I was meant to go to hell.

 

[Mykola]

I dare to step in...

I basically feel like I am a walking contradiction to God/Jehovah.

Why's that?

With every pore on my body I contrast with what the Bible teaches.

That's the phase that everyone goes through...

I am a horrible person and I deserve to be punished. At least, that's how I feel under the watchful eye of God.

Well, you acknowledge there's problem. Want to try to cope?

If I knew for sure that God didn't exist, I would be a lot happier because I know in my heart that I truly am a good person.

No, you'd never be sure in what's not true. You could be possibly tricked into believing that He doesn't exist, but you'd never ever be sure...

Good news is that God also knows that you're a good person. He sees your struggle, ready to help.

I personally think God screwed me over because in order to engage in a relationship with Him, I would have to give up the things I love - the things that define me.

Could we possibly go to some details?
And - aren't there any joys or delights that don't stand in open contradiction to the Bible?

The fear of God is embedded so deep and tightly inside of me that I wish I had never known of the concept of God.

Happily enough, you cannot turn back time

I always have this fiending thought that if I look into other religions that God is going smite me. But I guess I can't know for sure unless I look deeper into those other religions. Which is why I'm here.

The God who has inspired Paul to write: "Prove all things" is going to smite you? Nope, I dare not to agree.

But anyway, I was born into a Christian home and raised by my Christian mother. THAT I cannot help.

Yet, it can help you

Under her roof, God was so embedded into me that I grew sick of religion.

Alarm! Logical breach found: God was embedded, and you grew sick of religion.
1) God cannot be embedded
2) Religion is the word I personally don't like at all.
Teaching of Christ is not a religion, not in the sense Catholicism is.

I grew to hate religion. And growing sick and tired of it wasn't the sole purpose of me hating it. The more I discovered about myself the more I realized that I completely contrast with everything.

You're must be slandering on yourself, really!

Now, who I am isn't a choice of mine.

Not a single choice, but the result of many choices, friend.
Let's not complicate what is simple, but still not oversimplify what is rather complex...

What I do with who I am is what's in my power.

Exactly.
...Until you ask Him to help.
Look at Philippians 4:13... - does Paul doubt his abilities, though knowing perfectly that he's weak?

The fact that who I am isn't in my power is what makes me feel cheated.

I'm not a business leadership coach, but I can see lack of positive attidude here

That's what makes me feel like I was meant to go to hell.

And that's exactly what I felt once myself...

Emotions put aside, the matter can be dealt with by studying it carefully.