I Usually don't like getting into a discussion this late in the game, but being as how this just so happens to be my favorite topic of debate I couldn't help myself. I decided to go throught the 140 some odd posts and go from there.
I wholeheartedly believe in predestination from a philosophical and Biblical standpoint and think the whole notion of "free will" is illogical and comes from human pride and ignorance or a unwillingness to truly deal with the issue based on human pride. For the longest time I insisted that humans have free will until I objectively read a debate between two scolars on the subject. From there I have done more studying on the subject and can not help but come to the conclusions noted above.
The first thing I have noticed about this thread is a lack of definition for the words "free will" and "predestination". For a hint on what true "free will" is, Just the ability to choose is not it. That is simply a will:
*** The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48 ***
Will \Will\, n. [OE. wille, AS. willa; akin to OFries. willa,
OS. willeo, willio, D. wil, G. wille, Icel. vili, Dan.
villie, Sw. vilja, Goth wilja. See {Will}, v.]
[1913 Webster]
1. The power of choosing; the faculty or endowment of the
soul by which it is capable of choosing; the faculty or
power of the mind by which we decide to do or not to do;
the power or faculty of preferring or selecting one of two
or more objects.
For those who believe in "free will", there needs to be a qualification of what choices need to be "free" of in order to truly be a "free will" decision.
As far as predestination goes, the Biblical rendition of the word in the NT (Rom. 8, Eph. 1, etc) is the greek word "proorizo", which means preset boundaries,
not that God controls us like puppets. That would be "Hypercalvinism" which is a heresy.
From a logical perspectice, if predestination, which is taught in the Bible, and free will true existed together, there would be no need for this thread to have been so long in trying to reconcile the two's harmonic existence. The fact is that the two ideas are contrary to each other. This is not a paradox but a contradiction by definition. God is either fully sovereign or he is not sovereign at all. R.C Sproul put it well in his book "Chosen by God" when he stated "If there is one rebel molecule outside of God's control, then he is not sovereign".
As far as Rom. 9 goes, there is no other way of interpreting a chaprter emphasizing God's sovereignty than the obvious one in black and white.
1. God predestins people before they are born (Rom 9:10-13) " And not only this, but there was Rebeka also, when she had concieved twins by one man; our father Isaac; for thought the twins were not born yet, and had not done anything good or bad, in order that God's purpose according to His choice might stand, not because of works, but because of Him who calls, it was said to her " The older will serve the younger". Just as it is written "Jacob I loved and Esau I hated"
Even Jeremiah recognized this fact (Jer. 1:5) "Before I formed you in the wonb I knew you, And before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations."
2. God does predestin people to heaven and hell (Rom 9:19-23) "You will say to me then, "why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God. althought willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory."
God's omniscience does not equal his soveriegnty and His sovereignty does not equal that we are puppets. We still have the ability to chose, but because of our predisposition to sin (Rom 3:10-13,23), the only choices we have the ability to make without divine help are sinfull ones. When it comes down to the "nitty gritty", it all has to do with
influence, and not just divine influence but
any influence.
2 Peter 3
9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
To emphasize this verse solely is an outright denial of the context of this verse which is the "any" and "all" refered to in this verse is "us", or fellow believers,
not the whole world.
Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria
