Pretty simple thought experiment on these family separations

[Kangaroo Feathers]

We should want to keep our people safe in any way, we should want people coming in who won't just live off those working, we should be proud of who we are and we should indeed worship life in a sense.

Which justifies these family separations how, exactly?

 

[Estro Felino]

So we're now justifying brutalising children by dehumanising their parents..

A legal procedure of immigration for asylum seekers exists; if you choose illegal ways, by putting your children in danger you are not a good parent. This is far different from dehumanizing.

 

[Kangaroo Feathers]

A legal procedure of legal immigration for asylum seekers exists; if you choose illegal ways, by putting your children in danger you are not a good parent. This is far different from dehumanizing.

Are we talking about anyone who puts their children in danger? what are "illegal ways" to seek asylum?

 

[Kirran]

How does illegal immigration count as illegal and should it be treated equal to other illegal instances? Is that really what you're asking me, like for real?

If you are taking that from it, re-read.

With the best interests of the children in mind, what justifies forcibly removing them from their parents' care and keeping them in detention when those parents come to the USA and claim asylum-seeker status?

 

[Jumi]

It's about morality. I'm not as fine as the left with (1) sending kids to prison or (2) eliminating any laws that protect citizens that could lead to child removal.

Stop thinking too rigidly black and white, you call me "leftist" today because I don't believe in the State over morality and you don't believe in individual rights. To me it reminds more of the Soviet Union where individuals had no right when state was concerned, do you really want the way you want your country headed is the way of "enemies of state" by ethnicity, ideology or religion... the way the communists thought?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

You're right. Things like dynanism, cultural strength, and protection of that community play roles and fascism. We could almost say fascism is what happens when this is taken far out of control. However that doesn't make it somehow inherently wrong, only in certain contexts. We should want to keep our people safe in any way, we should want people coming in who won't just live off those working, we should be proud of who we are and we should indeed worship life in a sense.

Sadly, the rules here prevent me from fully articulating the disgust that your posts evoke -- and should evoke.

 

[1137]

Sadly, the rules here prevent me from fully articulating the disgust that your posts evoke -- and should evoke.

Haha. Right. So if something is used for evil it becomes inherently evil? No, I don't feel bad for calling things like life, a supportive community, and caring for the safety of ones own country positive values, sorry. But hey I wouldn't throw kids in prison either so...

 

[Kirran]

@Jayhawker Soule I think I am with you in just not understanding this.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

@Jayhawker Soule I think I am with you in just not understanding this.

I'm sorry -- just what is it that you think I don't understand?

 

[Kirran]

I'm sorry -- just what is it that you think I don't understand?

I am going off your incredulity at how people can actually argue in favour of separating children from their families forcibly and detaining them in camps.

 

[Underhill]

You mean the old photos and videos going around from the Obama era? Sadly child's services get very little money, and that's including for citizens. The departments are messes and they have to do what they can with the resources they have. There are two people to blame: parents for coming illegally and the states for underfunding child welfare. None ifthis effects the question of separation.


"Bad" is subjective and doesn't play a role, it's whether or not laws are broken.


You don't see how separating kids from parents who commit illegal acts effect the issue of illegal immigration???

Why separate them at all? And if there are circumstances where separation is necessary, throwing them in cages is not acceptable. If the budgets are underfunded, then fix it. That's no excuse.

The house, senate, presidency and most of the state governments are republican run. Blaming this on democrats is silly.

And it certainly has nothing to do with Obama or the democrats as Trump keeps claiming.

"The president and top administration officials say U.S. laws or court rulings are forcing them to separate families that are caught trying to cross the southern border.

These claims are false. Immigrant families are being separated primarily because the Trump administration in April began to prosecute as many border-crossing offenses as possible. This “zero-tolerance policy” applies to all adults, regardless of whether they cross alone or with their children.

The Justice Department can’t prosecute children along with their parents, so the natural result of the zero-tolerance policy has been a sharp rise in family separations. Nearly 2,000 immigrant children were separated from parents during six weeks in April and May, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

The Trump administration implemented this policy by choice and could end it by choice. No law or court ruling mandates family separations. In fact, during its first 15 months, the Trump administration released nearly 100,000 immigrants who were apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border, a total that includes more than 37,500 unaccompanied minors and more than 61,000 family members.

Children continue to be released to their relatives or to shelters. But since the zero-tolerance policy took effect, parents as a rule are being prosecuted. Any conviction in those proceedings would be grounds for deportation."

Analysis | The facts about Trump’s policy of separating families at the border

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am going off your incredulity at how people can actually argue in favour of separating children from their families forcibly and detaining them in camps.

Then I've done a poor job communicating.

incredulity is defined as "the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something." I'm a Jew. Sadly, I am perfectly willing and able to believe what's going on.

 

[Stevicus]

I did, I worked directly in the field trying to restore and improve state child services. Sadly there's just not enough power pushing behind it. We need stuff like better foster cares, more case workers, and so on. But none of this would change us removing children from criminal parents about to go to prison.

I agree that a lot of child welfare agencies are overburdened and experience acute shortages of resources and personnel. But there might be some ways to fast track getting some help for these kids. With all the attention this issue is receiving, there might be those who have the ability to quickly mobilize the resources necessary to find some sort of proper lodgings and foster care for these kids.

But the first thing to do is get them out of federal incarceration asap. A lot of schools are closed for the summer, and schools are often used as temporary shelters for evacuations or disasters. Even that would be better than where they're at now. Church groups might also be able to help in getting volunteers.

It is rather strange to implement this zero-tolerance policy just months before the mid-term elections. The various election campaigns could take a different turn, although it's hard to say.

 

[idav]

Couldn't say, I'm not really interested in who's fault it is. It is a bit sad and disgusting though that you only care about these children right now than the childcare problems we've been plagued with for decades. Just gross.



Ah so crimes are only crimes if we want them to be? So what about when the left starts saying we can kill far right Republicans to save our rights or whatever, you're now fine with murder? Or is a crime a crime?

The issue we see today didn’t exist before. Obama did catch and release or detained the family together without separating the families while they were vetted. No we don’t want kids in prison, it’s Trumps administration resorting to use of prison which is due to their zero tolerance policies. There has always been an outcry for children. I have seen my Senators working with Obama for eight years to fix issues regarding migrant children and Trump and Sessions have chosen to go several different directions and my Senators along with several others are pissed about the current policies. We have always cared, it has always been something to consider and it’s Trump and Sessions choosing to hold these children hostage in order to get their border wall approved.

 

[jonathan180iq]

As a social worker I can tell you most kids are upset at separation. I have a moral thought experiment here. Take a young baby away from a drug dealing, domestically violent parent about to go to jail, and the kid will cry their eyes out. Does this mean we should simply send the child to jail, or leave the drug dealer on the street, since the child is upset? What if he's a molestor, leave him on the streets? A thief? How does the crime at all effect the situation of a child not being sent to jail, and a criminal not being free. I mean sending a child to prison or leaving a criminal on the streets just because the child was upset... that's honestly way more disgusting than performing a necessary evil so a child can have a life.

Illegal border crossing is a misdemeanor...
https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/RL33351.pdf
Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 - Wikipedia

Misdemeanor - Wikipedia

Here's a simpler thought experiment:
Should someone in the United States, not yet convicted of a non-violent misdemeanor, have their children stripped from their custody and placed into "Resettlement" camps for an indefinite length of time?

https://www.acf.hhs.gov/sites/defau..._unaccompanied_alien_childrens_services_0.pdf

 

[Kirran]

Then I've done a poor job communicating.

incredulity is defined as "the state of being unwilling or unable to believe something." I'm a Jew. Sadly, I am perfectly willing and able to believe what's going on.

I imagine I've done a poor job myself.

 

[1137]

I am going off your incredulity at how people can actually argue in favour of separating children from their families forcibly and detaining them in camps.

Well 1, children are removed from parents daily, you guys on the left just don't care about them because it isn't tied to Trump. 2 they're not in campus lol. They're in shelter, with food and water and such, while the government looks for family to place them with.

Why separate them at all? And if there are circumstances where separation is necessary, throwing them in cages is not acceptable. If the budgets are underfunded, then fix it. That's no excuse.

The house, senate, presidency and most of the state governments are republican run. Blaming this on democrats is silly.

And it certainly has nothing to do with Obama or the democrats as Trump keeps claiming.

"The president and top administration officials say U.S. laws or court rulings are forcing them to separate families that are caught trying to cross the southern border.

These claims are false. Immigrant families are being separated primarily because the Trump administration in April began to prosecute as many border-crossing offenses as possible. This “zero-tolerance policy” applies to all adults, regardless of whether they cross alone or with their children.

The Justice Department can’t prosecute children along with their parents, so the natural result of the zero-tolerance policy has been a sharp rise in family separations. Nearly 2,000 immigrant children were separated from parents during six weeks in April and May, according to the Department of Homeland Security.

The Trump administration implemented this policy by choice and could end it by choice. No law or court ruling mandates family separations. In fact, during its first 15 months, the Trump administration released nearly 100,000 immigrants who were apprehended at the U.S.-Mexico border, a total that includes more than 37,500 unaccompanied minors and more than 61,000 family members.

Children continue to be released to their relatives or to shelters. But since the zero-tolerance policy took effect, parents as a rule are being prosecuted. Any conviction in those proceedings would be grounds for deportation."

Analysis | The facts about Trump’s policy of separating families at the border

Cages was under Obama my friend, it's already come out about the misleading reporting on this issue. As for the issue of legality, I must ask what other crime we should allow just because it would upset young children. Why does the left not see our duty to keep out citizens safe and stable as something important? Why do you hate those in the fight with you?

I agree that a lot of child welfare agencies are overburdened and experience acute shortages of resources and personnel. But there might be some ways to fast track getting some help for these kids. With all the attention this issue is receiving, there might be those who have the ability to quickly mobilize the resources necessary to find some sort of proper lodgings and foster care for these kids.

But the first thing to do is get them out of federal incarceration asap. A lot of schools are closed for the summer, and schools are often used as temporary shelters for evacuations or disasters. Even that would be better than where they're at now. Church groups might also be able to help in getting volunteers.

It is rather strange to implement this zero-tolerance policy just months before the mid-term elections. The various election campaigns could take a different turn, although it's hard to say.

So we should help people sneaking in and their children before helping our own people? See when I was on the far left I remember us always pissed about how the US went off to wars and played police before looking to care for it's own country. Now it like "eh **** the citizens, let's help others!" It's clear now that the left cares about who is behind policies, not what they are.

The issue we see today didn’t exist before. Obama did catch and release or detained the family together without separating the families while they were vetted. No we don’t want kids in prison, it’s Trumps administration resorting to use of prison which is due to their zero tolerance policies. There has always been an outcry for children. I have seen my Senators working with Obama for eight years to fix issues regarding migrant children and Trump and Sessions have chosen to go several different directions and my Senators along with several others are pissed about the current policies. We have always cared, it has always been something to consider and it’s Trump and Sessions choosing to hold these children hostage in order to get their border wall approved.

Kids living in cages and such was under Obama!!! This is unbelievably hypocritical. It's ok for obama, evil for Trump. You guys didn't even care about our OWN CITIZENS in care who've been suffering decade after decade, but now Trump says something and you care. It's really, really gross to me.

 

[LuisDantas]

If they migrate illegally, it means they cannot support them, to begin with.

The ability to support children is hugely dependent on environment, you know.

 

[Underhill]

Cages was under Obama my friend, it's already come out about the misleading reporting on this issue. As for the issue of legality, I must ask what other crime we should allow just because it would upset young children. Why does the left not see our duty to keep out citizens safe and stable as something important? Why do you hate those in the fight with you?

a) it was a rare occurrence under Obama policies. Did it happen? Sure. But it was few and far between. It is standard operating procedure now. Quite a distinction.

b) I don't hate anyone. Keeping kids in cages is not keeping Americans safe. That is a nonsensical argument.

This is not about allowing a crime. I'm not even against taking the kids from their parents if necessary (although I don't see the problem with keeping them together until trial). But putting them in cages is not acceptable. Kids do not deserve that kind of treatment.

You really need to examine your thoughts on this. This is not an immigration issue. It is about treating children with respect and decency. It's really that simple. I would make the same argument if the justice system did this to American kids taken from their parents for other crimes. But they don't. In those cases kids are put in foster care or with alternative family members.

 

[Thermos aquaticus]

If you have a problem with your position you need to take it up with yourself, not me. The sad fact is there's bad people out there and we have a responsibility to our citizens yo make sure those who move here are good people who will contribute. If you're opposed to that you're completely open to letting in people like MS13 waltz in. That's your problem.

I don't see how separating children from their parents helps in differentiating between the good people and the bad people.