Prisoner swap deal to free Shalit

[Alceste]

The PLO were engaged in terrorism, until serious negotiations have started, eventually making the establishment of the Palestinian Authority possible. of course this was all possible since the largest faction of the organization themselves have agreed to choose negotiations over violence. so yes at large that is the case. although there are several major exceptions.

The largest faction being Fatah?

I know from the fact they sometimes kill each other that Fatah and Hamas don't see eye to eye, but to be honest in the Western media Palestinians are usually portrayed as a single homogeneous group - they're either all unrepentant terrorists or all innocent victims of Israeli oppression, depending on what you're reading. That makes it difficult to identify which factions are more peaceful and progressive and which are more violent.

 

[Caladan]

The largest faction being Fatah?

I know from the fact they sometimes kill each other that Fatah and Hamas don't see eye to eye, but to be honest in the Western media Palestinians are usually portrayed as a single homogeneous group - they're either all unrepentant terrorists or all innocent victims of Israeli oppression, depending on what you're reading. That makes it difficult to identify which factions are more peaceful and progressive and which are more violent.

I guess I should give a general picture of some major points here.
The PLO has been the dominant force in Palestinian politics, it also encompasses several groups inside it or factions, the biggest one being Fatah.
Hamas has not been affiliated with that movement, and only in recent years has it emerged as a counter Palestinian faction to Fatah.
today the Palestinian territories are divided. before that the PLO and Fatah ran all of these territories, meaning both in the Gaza strip and the west bank. after the rise to power of Hamas in 2006, the result was armed clashes between Hamas and Fatah, and that left Hamas running the Gaza strip and the Fatah running the west bank.
in official negotiations, which have included the Americans in great deal, Israel and the PLO have arrived to mutual recognition, and in 1994 after the Oslo Accords these negotiations paved the way for the creation of the Palestinian Authority. a self governing body over the Palestinian urban centres. Fatah has been considered a legitimate body at large in this regard, as engaged in negotiations with Israel. while Hamas was and still is considered an Islamist organization, which is still branded as a terrorist movement by various countries around the world including the EU.
of course this only simplifying things. as there are more factions within the PLO itself, some can be said to be more moderate while others can be said to be more extremist. in addition there are other radical movements in the Palestinian territories with their own interests.
the different Palestinian factions have been involved in conflicts in Jordan, Israel, Lebanon and fighting also among themselves in inter-Palestinian clashes.

 

[Sahar]

Sahar do you think Hamas was right to demand the release of at least some of the prisoners, who freely confess to attacking civilians, and who are unrepentant?

Your question doesn't make much sense to me. Release who from who? My mind can't comprehend how it can be right for an entity that embraces terrorism to convict someone else as a terrorist. If Hamas deal wasn't right, then it's not right for the aggressor to be the judge at the same time.

One woman, for example, has been in prison for several years because she was the driver for a suicide bomber which killed a number of innocent people at a pizza restaurant (or a disco, I forget which). When asked if she felt bad about what she had done, she said "Of course not, why should I?" Does that woman deserve to be among worthy political prisoners who are being justly freed? Why would Hamas even want such a person to be released, if Hamas was a justice-loving or peace-loving organization (as depicted in your cartoon)?

What I know is that Israel isn't a justice loving or peace loving entity either. And What I know is that I am happy and proud of the Palestinian resistance efforts (and the Egyptian role as well) to release our prisoners from the Zionist enemy.

 

[Shermana]

What I know is that Israel isn't a justice loving or peace loving entity either.

How do you know that? Is it because Israel only attacks when being struck first and has a justice system that makes the Arabist/Islamist Aristocracies look like....Aristocracies?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

What I know is that Israel isn't a justice loving or peace loving entity either. And What I know is that I am happy and proud of the Palestinian resistance efforts (and the Egyptian role as well) to release our prisoners from the Zionist enemy.

All of them? Wow.

 

[Flankerl]

Iam not really surprised by such a statement.

Both Jews and Palestinians have a long history of killing each other. So should we dismiss the possibility that any Jewish or Palestinian political party is LESS violent than the next?

So because the PLO faught/fights against Israel it has to kill non-Israelis?

Makes sense to me. Why not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial.

Document where secret evidence was used, confessions extracted through torture, and there was no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality.

I told you I would only do so if you reveal why you think it would help your argument.

By which you tell us that you are, in fact, capable of doing so --- which we both know is a shameful lie.

 

[sadiq]

Your question doesn't make much sense to me. Release who from who? My mind can't comprehend how it can be right for an entity that embraces terrorism to convict someone else as a terrorist. If Hamas deal wasn't right, then it's not right for the aggressor to be the judge at the same time.

What I know is that Israel isn't a justice loving or peace loving entity either. And What I know is that I am happy and proud of the Palestinian resistance efforts (and the Egyptian role as well) to release our prisoners from the Zionist enemy.

"The Zionist Enemy", Just the way you utter it fills me with disgust.
If you weren't indoctrinated at childhood i'd take that as an insult

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"The Zionist Enemy", Just the way you utter it fills me with disgust.

I disagree (but that discussion is more appropriate to some other thread).

 

[Alceste]

By which you tell us that you are, in fact, capable of doing so --- which we both know is a shameful lie.

My requirement stands: make your counter-argument and I will do whatever research is required to address it. I know you would prefer to just waste my time sending me on an irrelevant wild goose chase, but you're only impressing yourself. This is a debate. Make a counter-claim.

 

[Bismillah]

An interesting point concerning the discussion between Alceste and Jay, Hamas was insistent on releasing all women currently in prison. They were handed a list of 27 women and Hamas realized that there were some names missing. Apparently eight women are currently not listed as being prisoners but are being detained, if anyone knows for how long and for what pretense that would be great.

"The Israelis claimed these women were not prisoners, they were merely detained and have not been charged.When that became clear to us, we told the Egyptians these women had to be included," Rishq said.

Palestinian prisoners 'mulled exile in 2006' - Features - Al Jazeera English

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

An interesting point concerning the discussion between Alceste and Jay, Hamas was insistent on releasing all women currently in prison. They were handed a list of 27 women and Hamas realized that there were some names missing.

Please understand that this is one of two renditions. The other is that Hamas arrived at a compromise. They got push-back from their base, and they attempted at the last minute to change the nature of the deal. To be honest, I am in no position to confirm either narrative. But I will note that your interpretation of the events does not appear to be shared by the Egyptians who, I suspect, would have been very vocal if what you say in fact occured.

 

[Alceste]

Israel has the option of "administrative detention", through which they can extra-judicially imprison Palestinians indefinitely without charges.

Administrative Detention | B'Tselem

I don't know if this was the status of the 8 missing women but from the government's language ("not in prison, just 'detained'") it seems likely.

 

[Alceste]

Please understand that this is one of two renditions. The other is that Hamas arrived at a compromise. They got push-back from their base, and they attempted at the last minute to change the nature of the deal. To be honest, I am in no position to confirm either narrative. But I will note that your interpretation of the events does not appear to be shared by the Egyptians who, I suspect, would have been very vocal if what you say in fact occured.

Evidence please.

 

[Bismillah]

Hi Jay, I'd appreciate the link for the other side of the story, according to the Hamas spokesman (who is obviously biased and speaking to make the deal in as favorable light as possible) it was the Israelis who changed the list at the last minute, or rather did not incorporate the full detail of names.

But I will note that your interpretation of the events does not appear to be shared by the Egyptians who, I suspect, would have been very vocal if what you say in fact occured.

Good point, considering that this would paint the Egyptians in a better light and set a precedent to cut off any such attmempts by the Israelis if any direct future exchanges occur between the two.

Also this leaves me with the question, why did someone like Wafa Al-Biss obtain a pardon but not the eight women who are currently in detention without a trial and not listed as prisoners? It would seem advantadgeous to the Israeli side at least to release those prisoners who were not involved with the First and Second Intifada?

 

[Alceste]

Hi Jay, I'd appreciate the link for the other side of the story, according to the Hamas spokesman (who is obviously biased and speaking to make the deal in as favorable light as possible) it was the Israelis who changed the list at the last minute, or rather did not incorporate the full detail of names. Good point, considering that this would paint the Egyptians in a better light and set a precedent to cut off any such attmempts by the Israelis if any direct future exchanges occur between the two.

Also this leaves me with the question, why did someone like Wafa Al-Biss obtain a pardon but not the eight women who are currently in detention without a trial and not listed as prisoners? It would seem advantadgeous to the Israeli side at least to release those prisoners who were not involved with the First and Second Intifada?

You can't be pardoned if you haven't been convicted, and can't be convicted unless you get a trial and you can't get a trial if no charges have been laid.

 

[Bismillah]

You can't be pardoned if you haven't been convicted, and can't be convicted unless you get a trial and you can't get a trial if no charges have been laid.

I was under the impression that at least some portion of these prisoners were incarcerated without any public trial or charges bought forth against them? If true then there is no reason why these women were not included in the deal.

 

[Alceste]

I was under the impression that at least some portion of these prisoners were incarcerated without any public trial or charges bought forth against them? If true then there is no reason why these women were not included in the deal.

That I don't know. I've been asking and looking for more info about who is being released, but other than a small handful of names coming up again and again I haven't had much luck.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Hi Jay, I'd appreciate the link for the other side of the story, according to the Hamas spokesman (who is obviously biased and speaking to make the deal in as favorable light as possible) it was the Israelis who changed the list at the last minute, or rather did not incorporate the full detail of names. Good point, considering that this would paint the Egyptians in a better light and set a precedent to cut off any such attmempts by the Israelis if any direct future exchanges occur between the two.

Also this leaves me with the question, why did someone like Wafa Al-Biss obtain a pardon but not the eight women who are currently in detention without a trial and not listed as prisoners? It would seem advantadgeous to the Israeli side at least to release those prisoners who were not involved with the First and Second Intifada?

Here are a couple of links:

• Hamas embarrassed as eight women stay behind in Israeli jails
  
• Hamas withdraws demand on female prisoners
• Israel, Hamas sign deal for soldier's release
  
• Hamas: Egypt pledged 9 women to be freed in days
  

A couple of points:

1. I list Haaretz first primarilly because it's considered by many to be the more left-leaning of the Israeli newspapers while ynetnews tends to occupy the other side.
2. Note that CNN reports:
   In a speech broadcast on Hamas-run Al-Quds television, exiled Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal said the prisoner exchange will involve the release of 1,027 Palestinian prisoners, including women.
   
   "The deal will happen in two stages -- the first stage the release of 450 Palestinian prisoners, including 315 Palestinian prisoners that have one or many life sentences and the ones who are with high sentences. The second stage will include 550 Palestinian prisoners," he said.
   
   The exchange will also include the release of 27 Palestinian female prisoners, Meshaal said.
   
   Shortly after his speech, Al-Aqsa television, also run by Hamas, broadcast images of Palestinians celebrating the agreement in Gaza.​
   while the Maannews writes, in part:
   On Tuesday, 27 women were released in the first stage of an Egypt-brokered prisoner swap freeing captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit in exchange for over 1,000 Palestinians jailed in Israel.​
   I see no evidence of duplicity here on the part of Israel.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

My requirement stands: ...

As does the lie. How convenient.