Prisoner swap deal to free Shalit

[Alceste]

But they still hold the majority of Parliament in the PLO. Right?

(I see that they oppose statehood, so I realize my first statement was incorrect.)

To be honest, I don't know. It makes more sense to look at the PLO and Hamas as competing political parties than to lump them together though.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm not playing.

You argue by hyperbole, innuendo, and unsubstantiated rant. It is for all intents and purposes hate speech, and it's shamefully irresponsible and unethical.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

To be honest, I don't know. It makes more sense to look at the PLO and Hamas as competing political parties than to lump them together though.

Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, this makes more sense:

The Palestinian legislative council has been unable to meet and govern since 2007 due to the Israeli imprisonment of some members, the Fatah–Hamas conflict and the indefinite postponing of elections by the Fatah leadership.[2][3]

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From ynetnews:

Would-be bomber tells Gaza kids to be like her​

Female terrorist released in Shalit swap encourages Gaza children to take up terror, expresses hope some of them will become martyrs; Wafa a-Biss detained in 2005 en route to exploding in Israeli hospital

Reuters Published: 10.19.11, 17:33 / Israel News

A would-be Palestinian suicide bomber freed by Israel in the prisoner swap for soldier Gilad Shalit told cheering schoolchildren in the Gaza Strip the day after her release on Wednesday she hoped they would follow her example.

"I hope you will walk the same path we took and God willing, we will see some of you as martyrs," Wafa al-Biss told dozens of children who came to her home in the northern Gaza Strip.

Biss was travelling to Beersheba's Soroka hospital for medical treatment in 2005 when Israeli soldiers at the Erez border crossing noticed she was walking strangely. They found 10 kgs (22 lbs) of explosives had been sewn into her underwear.

A member of al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, an offshoot of President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah party, Biss was sentenced to a 12-year term for planning to blow herself up.

After she spoke, the children cheered and waved Palestinian flags and chanted: "We will give souls and blood to redeem the prisoners. We will give souls and blood for you, Palestine."

And please document how this woman did not get a fair trial. Document where secret evidence was used, confessions extracted through torture, and there was no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From ynetnews:

The prisoner comparison​

Ynetnews presents comparison between treatment of Palestinian prisoners, Shalit's captivity

Ynetnews Published: 10.19.11, 17:04 / Israel News

In the days before Gilad Shalit was returned to Israel, various Hamas spokesmen boasted that he was treated well by his captors, "in line with the tenants of Islam." Meanwhile, other Palestinians slammed the imprisonment terms in Israeli jails as exceptionally harsh and cruel.

Following the completion of the Shalit swap, Ynetnews presents a comparison between the jail terms of Palestinian security detainees held in Israel and the treatment accorded to Gilad Shalit by Hamas.

Leisure and entertainment: Based on initial statements, Shalit was able to watch Arabic-language television and listen to Arabic-language radio. Meanwhile, Palestinian prisoners are given books and have access to 10 television channels.

Physical activity: Gilad Shalit's pale skin and his apparent difficulty in handling sunlight in the early moments of his release indicate that he was deprived of sunlight, a fact reinforced by statements from his father, Noam. Moreover, Gilad was held in solitary confinement. Meanwhile, Palestinian prisoners are allowed to exercise and walk outside in the sun every day. In addition, inmates can attend prayer sessions and religious classes.

Visits: Nobody visited Gilad Shalit in captivity, including Red Cross representatives. In Israel, close relatives of Palestinian inmates are allowed to visit every two weeks. In addition, Palestinian detainees are allowed to hug children aged up to 8.

Communication with the world: Gilad only sent one videotape, one audiotape, and three letters (largely dictated by his captors.) Meanwhile, Palestinian prisoners are entitled to meet lawyers and Red Cross representatives and can mail up to four letters each month.

Medical treatment: Gilad, who requires eyeglasses, arrived in Israel following his captivity without his glasses. Some experts said his vision may have been hampered had he been without glasses for years. Shalit's father, Noam, added that his son is suffering from shrapnel wounds that were not treated by Hamas. Meanwhile, Palestinian inmates are entitled to regular medical treatments, including dental work and eye exams.

Food: At this time, the quantity and quality of Gilad's food in captivity is unknown. However, he returned to Israel visibly slimmer and weaker. Meanwhile, Palestinian prisoners are given three full meals a day. They also receive some NIS 1,200 (roughly $350) per month from various organizations and use it to shop at the prison's canteen.

And yes, Alceste, I too have substantive issues with the violations of civil rights in Israel, but you appear to be so filled with anti-Israel hatred that you are intentionally and militantly unconcerned with some very real distinctions. With all its failures and shortcomings, there is no moral equivalency between Israel and the terrorism. By denying that with your incessant anti-Israel rant, you become an enabler, a part of the problem.

 

[sadiq]

To be honest, I don't know. It makes more sense to look at the PLO and Hamas as competing political parties than to lump them together though.

It makes alot more sense to look at Hamas and PLO as terrorists.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It makes more sense to look at the PLO and Hamas as competing political parties than to lump them together though.

It makes alot more sense to look at Hamas and PLO as terrorists.

It makes a lot more sense to recognize that both are true. Simplifying the Middle East is a deadly mistake.

 

[Caladan]

To be honest, I don't know. It makes more sense to look at the PLO and Hamas as competing political parties than to lump them together though.

Its not that 'it makes sense', that is the way it is de facto. before Hamas became the ruling body in the Gaza strip, both the west bank and the Gaza strip were under the authority of the 'PLO' or Fatah, the recognized body of the Palestinian Authority. both have been competing and also held military clashes which each other. Hamas was first elected because the Palestinians deemed the Palestinian Authority under Fatah as corrupt. ironically the same dissatisfaction has also grown about the Hamas.

 

[Alceste]

You argue by hyperbole, innuendo, and unsubstantiated rant. It is for all intents and purposes hate speech, and it's shamefully irresponsible and unethical.

Bla bla bla. Got a rebuttal, or just this kind of nonsense?

 

[Alceste]

Palestinian legislative election, 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

OK, this makes more sense:

Jeez. I don't know. I can't see where Abbas sits in there, but I know he's the one taking the request to the UN, and that Hamas does not approve of it.

 

[Alceste]

It makes alot more sense to look at Hamas and PLO as terrorists.

Maybe to you, but I haven't been subjected to the same upbringing as you apparently have. I still accept that Arabs can form political parties that are not committed to violence against Jews.

 

[Alceste]

Its not that 'it makes sense', that is the way it is de facto. before Hamas became the ruling body in the Gaza strip, both the west bank and the Gaza strip were under the authority of the 'PLO' or Fatah, the recognized body of the Palestinian Authority. both have been competing and also held military clashes which each other. Hamas was first elected because the Palestinians deemed the Palestinian Authority under Fatah as corrupt. ironically the same dissatisfaction has also grown about the Hamas.

Thanks, Caladan. That's helpful background information. I feel that the way to peace lies in embracing the most moderate faction of any party to a conflict, but there's so much hyperbole and misinformation insulating the truth of Palestinian politics it's often difficult to assess which group that might be. In your opinion, what is the least objectionable political party in Palestine?

 

[Alceste]

And please document how this woman did not get a fair trial. Document where secret evidence was used, confessions extracted through torture, and there was no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality.

I told you I would only do so if you reveal why you think it would help your argument. Moreover, you have to reveal what your argument actually is. Are you making a counter-claim that military tribunals entirely staffed and controlled by an occupying power are well equipped to provide impartial criminal trials to rebel fighters? Are you claiming that Israel does not torture their prisoners to extract confessions? Are you claiming that the defense in cases against Palestinian prisoners is always able to thoroughly review the evidence against the accused? What is it? Make your counter-claim, then I'll do my research.

 

[Flankerl]

Maybe to you, but I haven't been subjected to the same upbringing as you apparently have. I still accept that Arabs can form political parties that are not committed to violence against Jews.

You are right.
The PLO also has a history of killing non-jews to accomplish their goal. :clap

 

[Alceste]

You are right.
The PLO also has a history of killing non-jews to accomplish their goal. :clap

Both Jews and Palestinians have a long history of killing each other. So should we dismiss the possibility that any Jewish or Palestinian political party is LESS violent than the next?

 

[Caladan]

Thanks, Caladan. That's helpful background information. I feel that the way to peace lies in embracing the most moderate faction of any party to a conflict, but there's so much hyperbole and misinformation insulating the truth of Palestinian politics it's often difficult to assess which group that might be. In your opinion, what is the least objectionable political party in Palestine?

Fatah is the most widely recognized Palestinian movement. is has been the largest faction of the PLO, and has been running the Palestinian Authority before Hamas emerged as rulers in Gaza several years ago, and they still do in the west bank. the negotiations between Israel and the PLO and the Oslo Accords (1994) have resulted in the self governing of Palestinians in the form of the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Tamar]

Maybe to you, but I haven't been subjected to the same upbringing as you apparently have. I still accept that Arabs can form political parties that are not committed to violence against Jews.

Hamas and PLO are terrorist organizations. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

You don't need to grow up Jewish or Israeli to understand that.

I am sure Arabs can form political parties but these 2 organizations are not political parties.

 

[Alceste]

Hamas and PLO are terrorist organizations. Their charter calls for the destruction of Israel.

You don't need to grow up as a Jew to understand that.

I am sure Arabs can form political parties but these 2 organizations are not political parties.

It seems you do need to grow up as a Jew to understand that anyone who ideologically, politically or philosophically disapproves of the establishment or preservation of a Jewish state is a "terrorist".

 

[Alceste]

Fatah is the most widely recognized Palestinian movement. is has been the largest faction of the PLO, and has been running the Palestinian Authority before Hamas emerged as rulers in Gaza several years ago, and they still do in the west bank. the negotiations between Israel and the PLO and the Oslo Accords (1994) have resulted in the self governing of Palestinians in the form of the Palestinian Authority.

Would it be correct to say that the PLO has renounced violence to obtain their political objectives while Hamas has not?

 

[Caladan]

Would it be correct to say that the PLO has renounced violence to obtain their political objectives while Hamas has not?

The PLO were engaged in terrorism, until serious negotiations have started, eventually making the establishment of the Palestinian Authority possible. of course this was all possible since the largest faction of the organization themselves have agreed to choose negotiations over violence. so yes at large that is the case. although there are several major exceptions.