Prisoner swap deal to free Shalit

[Mr Spinkles]

...I won't join in this mindless chorus that the Palestinian prisoners are all murderers and terrorists ....

Actually Jay conceded that some of the Palestinian prisoners to be released may have been imprisoned unjustly. So you two share this skepticism.

sorry for the quote mine, but thought to answer this particular question. I know of 3 men in Mississippi who committed a crime about 15 years ago(give or take) who have never been tried yet are still sitting in jail, and a man here in NYC who has been in jail for at least 5 years and still hasn't been to court.

Really? And the 3 men have been sitting in jail for 15 years? For that crime, and no other? Sources, please, if you would be so kind.

Fair and speedy trials are the dreams of the naive.

That is arguably a self-fulfilling view.

 

[erelsgl]

Alceste,

You are partially right. Not all 1000 prisoners were convicted for murder. But many of them were.

Here is a picture of one of them (warning: not for the weak of heart):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Ramallah_lynching

"Aziz Salha was arrested in 2001. He admitted to being one of those who broke in to the police station and choking one of the soldiers while others beat him bloody. When he saw that his hands were covered with the soldier's blood, he went to the window and proudly displayed his blood-stained hands to the mob below.In 2004, an Israel court convicted him for the murder of Corporal Vadim Nurzhitz and sentenced him to life imprisonment.He is set to be released as part of the prisoner swap for Gilad Shalit"

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I should also mention that making a great Pavlovian leap to wild-eyed accusations of anti-semitism every time you stumble across someone who refuses to brainlessly regurgitate the Israeli government's narrative doesn't make for a good debate.

I am a Zionist.

I am also a supporter of the New Israel Fund, the Israel Religious Action Center, and Meretz USA. To suggest that I "brainlessly regurgitate the Israeli government's narrative" is simply stupid.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

From ynetnews:

Poll: 79% in favor of Shalit deal​

Yedioth Ahronoth-Dahaf Institute survey shows Israelis support prisoner swap despite heavy price, are happy and excited ahead of its implementation but fear its consequences. Women more supportive of deal than men

The vast majority of Israel's citizens are in favor of the deal securing the release of kidnapped soldier Gilad Shalit in exchange for 1,027 terrorists, a public opinion poll commissioned by Yedioth Ahronoth shows.

Asked whether they were in favor of Shalit's release in exchange for 1,027 terrorists, 79% of the respondents said yes and only 14% said no.

I hope that Shalit adjusts. I stand with the 79% but, were I Gilad, I'm not sure I could completely avoid feeling a particular anguish with each future act of terrorism, not knowing if the terrorist was enabled on behalf of my release. It's an extremely painful calculus.

 

[Caladan]

Arch-Murderers like Abd al-Hadi Ghanayem, The man hijacked a Bus drove it into a ravine and murdered 16 Civilians.
And they're even releasing men who masterminded Suicide bombings...

I know and have pointed out that terrorists with blood on their hands are being released. perhaps just like you, I even dined on several occasions in some of the places that were targeted and bombed by several of the prisoners who are being released.
Alceste and myself have argued about a specific issue here, and that is the content of the list. I pointed out that the press has discussed Israel's rejection of what it considered arch-terrorists. as this was one of the major things discussed by the press and the public. so nothing I said was 'wrong'. I am discussing the press and the deal itself as it is presented to any person who reads the newspaper.

 

[sadiq]

I know and have pointed out that terrorists with blood on their hands are being released. perhaps just like you, I even dined on several occasions in some of the places that were targeted and bombed by several of the prisoners who are being released.
Alceste and myself have argued about a specific issue here, and that is the content of the list. I pointed out that the press has discussed Israel's rejection of what it considered arch-terrorists. as this was one of the major things discussed by the press and the public. so nothing I said was 'wrong'. I am discussing the press and the deal itself as it is presented to any person who reads the newspaper.

Never said you are wrong, Stated a fact and provided evidence.
I thought you were saying something else to be frank.

 

[Caladan]

Never said you are wrong, Stated a fact and provided evidence.
I thought you were saying something else to be frank.

OK, no sweat.

 

[Shermana]

This trade of 1000 for 1 is so unbelievably stupid that there has to be an ulterior motive....

Releasing the most violent to start another fight perhaps?

 

[sadiq]

This trade of 1000 for 1 is so unbelievably stupid that there has to be an ulterior motive....

Releasing the most violent to start another fight perhaps?

There is no ulterior motive, The public is made out of idiots and simpletons who lack the cognitive ability to think in the long run.

 

[YmirGF]

This trade of 1000 for 1 is so unbelievably stupid that there has to be an ulterior motive....

Releasing the most violent to start another fight perhaps?

To tell you the truth, if I was a "Palestinian" I would be looking at this deal with great anxiety. Israel has agreed that 1000+ prisoners are worth a single Israeli. The "Palestinians" might be wise to remember those numbers in the future.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

I know and have pointed out that terrorists with blood on their hands are being released.

Literally, in one case ...

 

[Flankerl]

Really only one evil terrorist is being released?

Wow.





Ah well i wonder when the next israeli gets abducted. Someone should start a bet on that. Would be a bit sarcastic but hey reality sucks sometimes.



"Ban Ki-moon, the UN secretary-general, has said that the prisoner swap marks a positive step towards peace."

:biglaugh:

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Welcome home, Gilad!

 

[sadiq]

Welcome home Gilad, I'm sorry no one cares you're rotting in prison Pollard.

 

[Sahar]

Seeing the happy faces of the freed prisoners and their families made my very happy. Thanks to God before anyone and thanks to the free men who stood firmly for their cause, our sisters and brothers were freed. It was a very beautiful day.

 

[Alceste]

I am a Zionist.

I am also a supporter of the New Israel Fund, the Israel Religious Action Center, and Meretz USA. To suggest that I "brainlessly regurgitate the Israeli government's narrative" is simply stupid.

Really? Is it as stupid as accusing me of anti-semitism for leveling the exact same criticisms at Israel's military courts that I level at Guantanamo Bay's, or stupider?

 

[Alceste]

Alceste,

You are partially right. Not all 1000 prisoners were convicted for murder. But many of them were.

Here is a picture of one of them (warning: not for the weak of heart):
2000 Ramallah lynching - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Aziz Salha was arrested in 2001. He admitted to being one of those who broke in to the police station and choking one of the soldiers while others beat him bloody. When he saw that his hands were covered with the soldier's blood, he went to the window and proudly displayed his blood-stained hands to the mob below.In 2004, an Israel court convicted him for the murder of Corporal Vadim Nurzhitz and sentenced him to life imprisonment.He is set to be released as part of the prisoner swap for Gilad Shalit"

Yes, I am aware that some of the prisoners to be freed have committed terrible crimes. My question is, how many? What's the percentage? Are there more killers than peaceful protesters or journalists? Also, at what point do we allow that the time served for any crime - however horrendous - is adequate? The list concentrates on people who have been in prison for 20 years already. Karla Homolka - an unrepentant serial killer - served less time than that.

That said, I don't think the swap is a good idea. I agree with the view I heard from various Israeli families impacted by the violence perpetrated by one or two of the people to be released that it would have been preferable to arrange a prisoner swap as part of a negotiated peace deal. It does not seem either side has much to gain from this deal, except the families of the prisoners who will be freed and those with a vested interest in maintaining the status quo.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Really only one evil terrorist is being released?

Wow.

Was this directed at me?

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Seeing the happy faces of the freed prisoners and their families made my very happy. Thanks to God before anyone and thanks to the free men who stood firmly for their cause, our sisters and brothers were freed. It was a very beautiful day.

Sahar do you think Hamas was right to demand the release of at least some of the prisoners, who freely confess to attacking civilians, and who are unrepentant?

One woman, for example, has been in prison for several years because she was the driver for a suicide bomber which killed a number of innocent people at a pizza restaurant (or a disco, I forget which). When asked if she felt bad about what she had done, she said "Of course not, why should I?" Does that woman deserve to be among worthy political prisoners who are being justly freed? Why would Hamas even want such a person to be released, if Hamas was a justice-loving or peace-loving organization (as depicted in your cartoon)?

 

[Alceste]

Sahar do you think Hamas was right to demand the release of at least some of the prisoners, who freely confess to attacking civilians, and who are unrepentant?

I think the case of that woman should have been tried in an international criminal court. The problem with the military courts through which Israel processes the arrests of Palestinians is that there is absolutely no chance of a fair trial. Much of the time, the defense can not see the evidence against the accused, confessions are often extracted through torture, rulings are passed by Israel-appointed judges with no Palestinian representation... In short, these courts have all the same problems with credibility that afflict the courts of Guantanamo Bay.

I think the "right" thing for Palestinians to demand would have been fair, impartial trials for all Palestinian prisoners who have been convicted under the current dubious system, the release of any prisoners who have been detained without charges under "administrative detention" without trial for more than a few weeks, the quashing of confessions obtained under torture.... I could go on, but the jist of it is that the Palestinians should have demanded reform rather than cherry-picking prisoners to free while leaving the questionable system that imprisons them intact.