Prisoner swap deal to free Shalit

[Mr Spinkles]

I think the case of that woman should have been tried in an international criminal court. The problem with the military courts through which Israel processes the arrests of Palestinians is that there is absolutely no chance of a fair trial. Much of the time, the defense can not see the evidence against the accused, confessions are often extracted through torture, rulings are passed by Israel-appointed judges with no Palestinian representation... In short, these courts have all the same problems with credibility that afflict the courts of Guantanamo Bay.

I think the "right" thing for Palestinians to demand would have been fair, impartial trials for all Palestinian prisoners who have been convicted under the current dubious system, the release of any prisoners who have been detained without charges under "administrative detention" without trial for more than a few weeks, the quashing of confessions obtained under torture.... I could go on, but the jist of it is that the Palestinians should have demanded reform rather than cherry-picking prisoners to free while leaving the questionable system that imprisons them intact.

Well said, although (1) Would an international court really be necessary? and (2) the sad thing is that not only did Hamas leave the system intact, it also "cherry-picked" people who are totally unworthy of release, by any standard of peace or justice. Couldn't Hamas have "cherry-picked" political prisoners or people whom we don't *know* committed crimes, to be released? Instead Hamas apparently deliberately picked murderers to be released, even possibly at the expense of not having more political prisoners released, because Hamas supports the murder of civilians. Very discouraging but not surprising.

 

[Alceste]

Well said, although (1) Would an international court really be necessary? and (2) the sad thing is that not only did Hamas leave the system intact, it also "cherry-picked" people who are totally unworthy of release, by any standard of peace or justice. Hamas literally wants murderers to be released because Hamas supports the murder of civilians. Very discouraging but not surprising.

I have read that what they cherry picked was a representative sampling of prisoners from across the entire spectrum of Palestinian opinion. That makes political sense to me because they have lost a substantial amount of political ground to the more moderate Abbas of the PLO since he decided to attempt recognition at the UN. A representative sampling would surely include some prisoners who are not guilty of any crime other than publicly objecting to the occupation and illegal settlements. (If anyone wants to dispute that Israel imprisons peaceful protesters, I can provide evidence).

I can't stand Hamas because they're not at all interested in peace: Just as it serves the political interests of Israel's current government to continue the violence and unspeakable oppression, it serves the interests of Hamas to play the martyr. I think their decisions - like the decisions of all politicians - are calculated to increase their popularity.

OTOH, I still want to know what the ratio of non-violent political prisoners to actual criminals is in the group to be released. I can't decide whether to support it or not otherwise.

 

[Flankerl]

That poor egyptian "reporter" had no idea that a prisoner of hamas was forced to do an "interview" under the watch of hamas members to promote pro-palestinian and pro-egyptian propaganda.

Yeah when ever someone is being held against his will, looks tired and gives forced answers I would never suspect that he could have something else on his mind.

Yeah iam that stupid.
Egyptian reporter: I did not take advantage of Shalit - Israel News, Ynetnews



Ah well its obviously a nice day. How about some nice pictures.

One of those proud freedom fighters who were freed is Aziz Salha who lynched one of the two israeli soldiers in ramallah.




Also glorious Samir Kuntar known for murdering small children with his bare hands approves of this deal.
Samir Kuntar: Kidnap more soldiers - Israel News, Ynetnews




This is always so weird. I hate so much about the politics of israel and then you have something like this where you are just left speechless.

But all of this wont be reported in the western media. Why should it...

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Really? Is it as stupid as accusing me of anti-semitism ...

You and your hyperbole are very clear to the point of being transparent.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, I am aware that some of the prisoners to be freed have committed terrible crimes. My question is, how many? What's the percentage?

What percentage is acceptable to you?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

This whole situation is unfortunate and doesn't make sense to me.

Israel has 5,000 Palestinian prisoners - one has to wonder if there are political prisoners or innocents that Israel knows about.

Also, this is clearly a one sided deal. I wonder if there's some kind of secret deal that Hamas backs off from seeking UN inclusion and participation in para-UN international activities. Now that and an Israeli soldier would be a good deal.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

One woman, for example, has been in prison for several years because she was the driver for a suicide bomber which killed a number of innocent people at a pizza restaurant (or a disco, I forget which). When asked if she felt bad about what she had done, she said "Of course not, why should I?"

I think the case of that woman should have been tried in an international criminal court. The problem with the military courts through which Israel processes the arrests of Palestinians is that there is absolutely no chance of a fair trial.

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial.

 

[Alceste]

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial.

A trial such as the military courts in the occupied territories and Guantanamo are unfair by definition. Secret evidence is used, confessions extracted through torture, there is no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality, etc. Note that these criticisms are NOT the same as claiming she is innocent - she's still bragging about it, so that would be ludicrous. It would be better to convict her through a fair trial than to release her, wouldn't you agree?

My concern is for non-violent political prisoners convicted by the kangaroo courts of Palestine and people held without trial. Of course I think society should be protected from dangerous criminals, but it must also be protected from the excesses of an unchecked state.

 

[Alceste]

What percentage is acceptable to you?

I would feel more or less OK with the deal if the majority are either innocent, non-violent, or have served a reasonable length of time for their crimes. We know about the handful of high profile releases. What about the rest?

 

[Alceste]

This whole situation is unfortunate and doesn't make sense to me.

Israel has 5,000 Palestinian prisoners - one has to wonder if there are political prisoners or innocents that Israel knows about.

Also, this is clearly a one sided deal. I wonder if there's some kind of secret deal that Hamas backs off from seeking UN inclusion and participation in para-UN international activities. Now that and an Israeli soldier would be a good deal.

The UN bid is not being made by Hamas.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

The UN bid is not being made by Hamas.

I must be living under a rock.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

One woman, for example, has been in prison for several years because she was the driver for a suicide bomber which killed a number of innocent people at a pizza restaurant (or a disco, I forget which). When asked if she felt bad about what she had done, she said "Of course not, why should I?"

I think the case of that woman should have been tried in an international criminal court. The problem with the military courts through which Israel processes the arrests of Palestinians is that there is absolutely no chance of a fair trial.

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial.

A trial such as the military courts in the occupied territories and Guantanamo are unfair by definition. Secret evidence is used, confessions extracted through torture, there is no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality, etc.

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial.

Document where secret evidence was used, confessions extracted through torture, and there was no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality.

 

[Alceste]

You and your hyperbole are very clear to the point of being transparent.

The way Zionists tend to answer every criticism, however reasonable, with accusations of bigotry is a big pet peeve of mine, much like the terms "anti-American" and "Bush-bashing" that flourished during early criticism of America's wars in the ME. I exaggerate when annoyed.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The way Zionists tend to answer every criticism, however reasonable, with accusations of bigotry is a big pet peeve of mine, ...

Answer the question above.

 

[Alceste]

I must be living under a rock.

Hamas is not the PLO. They don't approve of the bid.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I must be living under a rock.

What a cluster ****.

The PNA has received financial assistance from the European Union and the United States (approximately USD 1 bln. combined in 2005). All direct aid was suspended on 7 April 2006 as a result of the Hamas victory in parliamentary elections.[10][11] Shortly thereafter, aid payments resumed, but were channeled directly to the offices of Mahmoud Abbas in the West Bank.[12] Conflict between Hamas and Fatah later in 2006 resulted in Hamas taking exclusive control over the administration of all PNA institutions in the Gaza Strip. Since 9 January 2009, when Mahmoud Abbas' term as President was supposed to have ended and elections were to have been called, Hamas supporters and many in the Gaza Strip have withdrawn recognition for his Presidency and instead consider Aziz Dweik, who served as the speaker of the house in the Palestinian Legislative Council, to be the acting President until new elections can be held.[13][14] No Western financial assistance is given to the PNA authorities in Gaza and Western governments do not recognize anyone but Abbas to be the President.

So who's on first? I see that President Abbas is seeking statehood but isn't recognized by Hamas, who controls the land that he's supposed to administer under the authority of the Palestinian Authority? And Hamas has the majority of parliamentary seats in the Palestinian Authority's government?

My sweet lord.

 

[Alceste]

Answer the question above.

Why? What is to be gained? Are you attempting to argue that a fair trial is possible in such circumstances as I described, or denying the military courts conceal evidence and use confessions extracted through torture? Why are you obsessing about one prisoner out of a thousand?

I an willing to document my claims about the short-comings of military courts if that is what you are disagreeing with. I'm not willing to embark on a major research project for no good reason.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Hamas is not the PLO. They don't approve of the bid.

But they still hold the majority of Parliament in the PLO. Right?

(I see that they oppose statehood, so I realize my first statement was incorrect.)

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Why? What is to be gained?

Are you able to do so or not? Again:

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial. Document where secret evidence was used, confessions extracted through torture, and there was no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality.​

Or do you maintain that you are justified in making whatever unsubstantiated claim you wish so long as it is an anti-Israel rant. And you whine about your "pet peeve" - what disgusting hypocrisy.

 

[Alceste]

Are you able to do so or not? Again:

Please document how that woman did not get a fair trial. Document where secret evidence was used, confessions extracted through torture, and there was no pretense or effort toward judicial impartiality.​

Or do you maintain that you are justified in making whatever unsubstantiated claim you wish so long as it is an anti-Israel rant. And you whine about your "pet peeve" - what disgusting hypocrisy.

I'm not playing. Explain why you think a critical examination of one single case out of a thousand will disprove my claim that the courts in the occupied territories are systemically unfair or drop your request. I'm not going on a wild goose chase for you.