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Pro-choice vs Abortion

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
I believe that anybody below the 'age of accountability' (which my faith system puts at about 8) goes to heaven.

Which means, according to your logic, that it is completely acceptable to go shoot all the kids at a day care center. They are all going to heaven, right?

Except of course that the guy who does that is probably going to get shot himself, if he isn't convicted of mass murder. We do consider people who murder children to be particularly nasty.

But, again....according to your logic, it should be perfectly OK, right? The victims are all going to heaven.

Your logic is as lousy as the person who claims that since foeti have to face so many OTHER dangers, and since a large percentage of pregnancies end in natural miscarriages, then 'what's the rub?" Abortion is just one more danger, right?

No matter what your view is on abortion, that logic is insane.

No-- the "logic" is all yours and anyone else who thinks Magic should have a place in modern, secular societies.

If your "logic" is that all aborted fetuses and children go directly to heaven?

THEN ABSOLUTELY KILL THEM ALL, BEFORE THEY GET A CHANCE TO ... "SIN".

That IS the logical conclusion of your belief!

Which is why so many people are opposed to letting your belief RULE society.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure I've heard that certain animals will reabsorb some of their feti if they sense that resources are scarce. Matter of fact nature has cruelty in it that goes a step further in my view, with culling occurring and sibling domination. Like in the arctic, the strongest snowy owl hatchling might steal all the food, or with the arctic fox which that has huge litters, I'm sure not all of those survive. You're not using a good example.
My point was humanity must have a strategy for evolution that ensures that the human species survives this feminist crusade in favour of abortion on demand. This would require legislation to identify the deserving cases from the undeserving ones.
 

Kangaroo Feathers

Yea, it is written in the Book of Cyril...
58805563_2103817239666753_1819307189777465344_n.jpg
 

Shad

Veteran Member
Yeah I am a clump of cells just like a zygote, but I don't identify a zygote as a human, just as I wouldn't say a tadpole is a frog or a caterpillar is butterfly. My hand is also a clump of cells. Disconnected from my body, I wouldn't say that my hand is a human, though it potentially a part of a human just as a zygote is potentially the precursor to a human. Your view to me simply becomes too abstract, and one thing biologists do not do is to break down boundaries of identification between biological states and parts.

Note what precursor means.
 

Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Modern medicine has caused issues if you want this to be a goal.
Each State has its own strategy for human evolution, so at the end the stronger national societies will dominate world affairs through population management.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Each State has its own strategy for human evolution, so at the end the stronger national societies will dominate world affairs through population management.

Hmmm Darwinian evolution... did you see the series Hunger Games?

Dr. Warren Hern, author of Abortion Practice, the medical text that teaches abortion procedures, tolda Planned Parenthood conference: “We have reached a point in this particular technology [D&E abortion] where there is no possibility of denying an act of destruction. It is before one’s eyes. The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current.”

In Their Own Words: Pro-Lifers Aren’t the Only Ones Who Call Abortion Killing
 
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Shantanu

Well-Known Member
Hmmm Darwinian evolution... did you see the series Hunger Games?

Dr. Warren Hern, author of Abortion Practice, the medical text that teaches abortion procedures, tolda Planned Parenthood conference: “We have reached a point in this particular technology [D&E abortion] where there is no possibility of denying an act of destruction. It is before one’s eyes. The sensations of dismemberment flow through the forceps like an electric current.”

In Their Own Words: Pro-Lifers Aren’t the Only Ones Who Call Abortion Killing
If there is a medical or genetic issue that needs addressing by the doctors than how can abortion be called killing? A perfectly a good foetus and mother's safety are considerations that would render the abortion unlawful.
 

sealchan

Well-Known Member
I'm pro-life, because I believe in the sanctity if human life. I'm pro-choice, because I respect other people's freedoms.

The abortion debate is really a sucker's choice scenario. The moment a woman and her partner has to choose an abortion is it's own life changing consequence and we dont need a legal one. Those who would experience such moments of decision are forced to look at their whole lives in a sense of deep judgment and weigh all things in a balance.

Those who would experience such a choice casually would likely make poor parents.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Ten Reasons Why It Is Wrong to Take the Life of Unborn Children

All ten reasons given referred to God or the Bible. Reasons that depend on believing what Christians believe obviously carry no persuasive power with those who don't believe in gods or consider the Bible authoritative.

So they offer no non-religious reason not to terminate a pregnancy? Then they offer no reason for the unbeliever.

is it really pro-choice to take away the options (choices) of an unborn fetus

Fetuses early enough in development to be legally aborted don't make choices.

Strictly speaking, the term should be pro-women's choice. What pro-choice refers to is being in favor of the pregnant woman being the one who makes the choice of whether she wants to deliver a baby or have an abortion. Others would have the state make that choice on behalf of the church, in essence informing women that once they were pregnant, they were compelled to serve as incubators for the church and state.

It a little too Handmaid's Tale for me, a little too theocratic. I support church-state separation, not the state enforcing the religious preferences of the dominant religion. And I support empowering women to control their lives. A bright, college-bound teenager becomes pregnant. She should be the one to choose whether to drop out of school to wait tables and raise a baby alone, or to end the pregnancy and continue with her education and perhaps a professional career. Later, when she is older and chooses to have a baby, that will be the time to bring another child into the world.

People who aren't sure they can raise a baby do have options. They can give the baby to adoption. I don't really understand surrogate pregnancy but it's possible that's an option too. They can even choose to I dunno practice abstinence.

Abortion is also one of those options.

We are talking about taking away the rights of women to please the emotions of a group of people that do not seem to much care what happens after birth so long as there is one.

Agree, which is why some people call them pro-birth rather than pro-life. While generating another human being may be a positive thing for the people directly involved, I'd bet that you agree that it's not for the world, which needs fewer people, not more.

If you want to argue biology, you should actually do some research into human and animal life cycles. A human embryo will never become anything but a human. It is genetically a distinct human being that checks off all the boxes on the list of what constitutes a life form--engage in metabolic processes, adapt and react to their environment, maintain a state of homeostasis, grow and develop, and are composed of cells. It is, by every definition, a unique human life and a distinct human being. Beginning of human personhood - Wikipedia

Like many others, you're assuming that the moral status of abortion depends on whether we call the fetus living, human, a human being, a child, a baby, or a person, nor whether the act of aborting is killing, nor when life begins. I am happy to concede all of that and still support a potential mother's right to choose, because none of those enter into my decision about the moral status of abortion.

It has only to do with whether the fetus is developed enough to know what is happening to it and experience suffering. There is no certain test for this, but the lack of a sufficiently developed nervous system is an adequate indicator that the fetus is experiencing little or nothing.

But that's irrelevant, since as a male who was never the father of any fetus that wasn't planned and welcomed into the world, I've never had to consider abortion. Only then would these issues have arisen for me. I don't know what I would do if I were a woman with an unwanted pregnancy, but that's not the moral issue before me. It's simply who gets to make that choice, the woman or the church-state alliance, and that's an easy choice for me to make.

My point was humanity must have a strategy for evolution that ensures that the human species survives this feminist crusade in favour of abortion on demand.

Actually, humanity needs a strategy to avoid overpopulation.

And what's wrong with feminists crusading in the interests of women? I support that as well.

Also, I support abortion on demand, but only early in the pregnancy. No reasons need be given, and nobody's approval sought.Like buying milk on demand, or taking a shower on demand.

In Their Own Words: Pro-Lifers Aren’t the Only Ones Who Call Abortion Killing

No, they aren't. I call abortion killing as well. But killing is not immoral per se. Only specific types of killing are. If you chop down a tree, you are killing it. If you euthanize a dying pet, you are killing it. If you take a living ear of corn from a corn stalk, it will die. If you take effective antibiotics, microorganisms are killed. All of those acts kill, and all are moral acts for most of us.

For killing to be immoral, there needs to be suffering caused at a minimum.

Incidentally, just how pro-life are pro-lifers? Given how many are religious, I'm going to guess that many consider global warming, which is a huge threat to life globally and in all kingdoms, a hoax, which they believe it by faith, since the evidence contradicts them. What was the typical pro-lifer's stance on bombing Iraq on false pretenses? Pro-life doesn't sound like the right name for somebody whose chief interest in life is forcijng more babies to be born.
 
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amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
Note what precursor means.

eh, many things could be a precursor to a potential life. A marriage, a thought, the existence of a couple genders. A zygote might not be too far outside the realm of a mere thought. It's only at about 30% of the download, leaving plenty plenty of time to cancel the download without an unreasonable amount of time vested in it. The big files for emotion, reason, and human form aren't there yet, and if you don't want it, it makes sense to cancel it before they give the new program partial functionality.

Also, you could look at it from the angle of recapitulation theory, which describes an organism's developmental process as accelerating through its phylogeny as it develops in a womb. That means that a human zygote actually represents a reflection of a biological organism probably several billion years ago, which probably was more or less the potential base for a number of other organisms. So technically, if you freeze the state of the zygote, all your looking at is really some highly generalized archean organism, if ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
If there is a medical or genetic issue that needs addressing by the doctors than how can abortion be called killing? A perfectly a good foetus and mother's safety are considerations that would render the abortion unlawful.

High profile leaders of Planned Parenthood didn't mind using those phrases

· Faye Wattleton, former President of Planned Parenthood, told MS Magazine in 1997, “I think we have deluded ourselves into believing that people don't know that abortion is killing. So any pretense that abortion is not killing is a signal of our ambivalence, a signal that we cannot say yes, it kills a fetus” (“Speaking Frankly,” May/June 1997).

In Their Own Words: Pro-Lifers Aren’t the Only Ones Who Call Abortion Killing
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
eh, many things could be a precursor to a potential life. A marriage, a thought, the existence of a couple genders. A zygote might not be too far outside the realm of a mere thought. It's only at about 30% of the download, leaving plenty plenty of time to cancel the download without an unreasonable amount of time vested in it. The big files for emotion, reason, and human form aren't there yet, and if you don't want it, it makes sense to cancel it before they give the new program partial functionality.

Also, you could look at it from the angle of recapitulation theory, which describes an organism's developmental process as accelerating through its phylogeny as it develops in a womb. That means that a human zygote actually represents a reflection of a biological organism probably several billion years ago, which probably was more or less the potential base for a number of other organisms. So technically, if you freeze the state of the zygote, all your looking at is really some highly generalized archean organism, if ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny.

Of course the depression and risk of cancer are considerations
not to mention the most typical reason for an abortion in the world which is that the child is a little girl.
 

whirlingmerc

Well-Known Member
Brilliant!

God may do things that result in a greater good

Many things involve both good and evil that may result in a greater good
Jesus being betrayed, suffering at the hands of men, dying on a cross and being raised for one

Joseph being sold into slavery by his brothers but saving both Jews and gentiles from famine for another.
 
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Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Because you say so?

I think it is quite appropriate :)

No. The US Constitution strictly forbids elevating one religion over another or no religion.

Since there is no scientific consensus as to when a fetus has a working brain? We use Best Practice, which puts that well into the 3rd trimester.

Barring severe medial issues? All abortions obtained because the woman does not wish to be pregnant, occur long-long before the 3rd.

Abortions occurring that late, are always traumatic events-- because the woman wanted to have that kid, else she'd not let it go that long... and it's akin to losing child.

SO THERE REALLY IS NO NEED OF ANY OF THESE ANTI-WOMEN/ANTI-CHOICE HATE-LAWS.

The sole reason to have them? Is to punish women-- by forcing Bronze Age Superstitious Nonsense onto them.

Proof? Most Christians the world over-- including Catholics -- are in favor of abortion on demand, before the 3rd trimester. (Even the Catholic Clergy are coming around... )
 
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