Problem with sin/free will arguement

[JustWondering]

Many abrahamic theists like to argue that humanity created sin, not god (who is blameless, good, and pure). Which justifies their god in treating humanity like dirt. That just does not make any sense to me. Especially since god is to have created everything. My reasoning goes like this:

Sin = disobedience to god.
Free will = the choice to be obedient or not (sin).
God created free will = God created sin.

It amounts to an adult storing a loaded gun with their kids toys and telling the child "don't play with this its dangerous". If someone ends up getting shot are you really going to blame the child? Seriously, why is this such a hard concept for theists to understand?

 

[Onkara]

My personal opinion is that whilst we, the creation, feel separate from the Creator, or God then we feel we can sin and that we have free will to ignore God. When we decide to abide with God's will (for what ever reason), then we find that free will was nothing more than us blindly following the force of desire.

 

[JustWondering]

My personal opinion is that whilst we, the creation, feel separate from the Creator, or God then we feel we can sin and that we have free will to ignore God. When we decide to abide with God's will (for what ever reason), then we find that free will was nothing more than us blindly following the force of desire.

So you do not believe that humans have free will?

 

[Onkara]

Not exactly. Free will exists only whilst we believe it does. Free will is illusive whilst we feel that our desires are choosen by us. Remove the desire and we still act. We are impelled to act because we are not separate from the whole, however until we recognise that whole (Creator and creation are One) then we think we are acting from our individual free will.

What do you think?

 

[BruceDLimber]

No, to me your conclusion doesn't follow because sin (aka evil) is not a "thing" in its own right, but rather a lack!

The scriptures I endeavor to follow explain this in detail:


Chapter 74.
THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— 'Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Onkara]

Hi Bruce
I agree. This is a good quote. That "lack" is felt by desire. It is the acting on desire which, in my opinion above, gives rise to the illusion of freewill and choice.

 

[JustWondering]

No, to me your conclusion doesn't follow because sin (aka evil) is not a "thing" in its own right, but rather a lack!

The scriptures I endeavor to follow explain this in detail:


Chapter 74.
THE NONEXISTENCE OF EVIL

“The true explanation of this subject is very difficult. Know that beings are of two kinds: material and spiritual, those perceptible to the senses and those intellectual.
“Things which are sensible are those which are perceived by the five exterior senses; thus those outward existences which the eyes see are called sensible. Intellectual things are those which have no outward existence but are conceptions of the mind. For example, mind itself is an intellectual thing which has no outward existence. All man's characteristics and qualities form an intellectual existence and are not sensible.
“Briefly, the intellectual realities, such as all the qualities and admirable perfections of man, are purely good, and exist. Evil is simply their nonexistence. So ignorance is the want of knowledge; error is the want of guidance; forgetfulness is the want of memory; stupidity is the want of good sense. All these things have no real existence.
“In the same way, the sensible realities are absolutely good, and evil is due to their nonexistence—that is to say, blindness is the want of sight, deafness is the want of hearing, poverty is the want of wealth, illness is the want of health, death is the want of life, and weakness is the want of strength.
“Nevertheless a doubt occurs to the mind—that is, scorpions and serpents are poisonous. Are they good or evil, for they are existing beings? Yes, a scorpion is evil in relation to man; a serpent is evil in relation to man; but in relation to themselves they are not evil, for their poison is their weapon, and by their sting they defend themselves. But as the elements of their poison do not agree with our elements—that is to say, as there is antagonism between these different elements, therefore, this antagonism is evil; but in reality as regards themselves they are good.
“The epitome of this discourse is that it is possible that one thing in relation to another may be evil, and at the same time within the limits of its proper being it may not be evil. Then it is proved that there is no evil in existence; all that God created He created good. This evil is nothingness; so death is the absence of life. When man no longer receives life, he dies. Darkness is the absence of light: when there is no light, there is darkness. Light is an existing thing, but darkness is nonexistent. Wealth is an existing thing, but poverty is nonexisting.
“Then it is evident that all evils return to nonexistence. Good exists; evil is nonexistent.”
— 'Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 282-284

Peace,

Bruce

In the OP itself I described sin as disobedience to god. If you want to talk about evil than please start another thread, thank you.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

God created free will = God created sin.

That doesn't make sense to me. It goes with the same logic in calling a gun smith he's a murder because he makes guns.

 

[no-body]

The argument goes that Adam and Eve where "perfect" so they made the decision fully informed and in spite of God. Honestly I must have a different definition of perfect if you can be perfect and tricked by a talking lizard.

 

[JustWondering]

That doesn't make sense to me. It goes with the same logic in calling a gun smith he's a murder because he makes guns.

Some theists claim sin is the result of free will. So without free will there could be no sin. As for murder, there are plenty of ways to murder someone without using a gun. Guns are also used for hunting and self defense.

 

[John D]

Man had a free will, once,.. now he can only choose between what he perceive as good or evil, which evidently, is coming from the same source - the tree of knowledge (if you will). We have lost the one thing that really made as the crown of creation - the knowledge of the Will of God. To really have a thing called "free Will" is to have knowledge of the Will of God and the insight and wisdom to know how to act on it.
What we call "free will" is a incomplete way of making decisions. But our arrogance makes us feel good about it.

 

[BIG D]

Many abrahamic theists like to argue that humanity created sin, not god (who is blameless, good, and pure). Which justifies their god in treating humanity like dirt. That just does not make any sense to me. Especially since god is to have created everything. My reasoning goes like this:

Sin = disobedience to god.
Free will = the choice to be obedient or not (sin).
God created free will = God created sin.

It amounts to an adult storing a loaded gun with their kids toys and telling the child "don't play with this its dangerous". If someone ends up getting shot are you really going to blame the child? Seriously, why is this such a hard concept for theists to understand?

I think we're 'programmed' to ''sin''

 

[BIG D]

So you do not believe that humans have free will?

did you see my thread 'free will'?I don't believe at all in free will..if you take the 'sin' of murder, why is it that blacks commit murder way out of proportion and way more per population than other races??

 

[JustWondering]

did you see my thread 'free will'?I don't believe at all in free will..if you take the 'sin' of murder, why is it that blacks commit murder way out of proportion and way more per population than other races??

The point of this thread is that many theists blame humanity for all the worlds woes because we created sin. Which is ridiculous. The theists arguement is that we were able to create sin because we have free will. But god is the one who gave us free will in the first place. We can only act and behave in the way we were created to behave if we have a creator. If god created us to be completely obidient and expected us to be completely obidient that would mean he is fallible. Or in other words imperfect, not all-powerful and all-knowing. Follow?

 

[BruceDLimber]

That "lack" is felt by desire. It is the acting on desire which, in my opinion above, gives rise to the illusion of freewill and choice.

I strongly disagree: we clearly DO have free will (and hence, choice), as scripture asserts and as billions of us demonstrate every day!

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Onkara]

I strongly disagree: we clearly DO have free will (and hence, choice), as scripture asserts and as billions of us demonstrate every day!

Peace,

Bruce

Hello Bruce
We have what appears to be free will until we recognise God's will as greater than our own. As God's will is greater.

Here are some indications from some Baha'i writings:

"God’s will became His will, and God’s pleasure, His pleasure;" - Source Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 41-46

"Even when speaking as a man, however, Bahá’u’lláh speaks as God’s messenger, as a living example of entire devotion to God’s will."Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh and the New Era, Pages 41-46


"Content with God’s will, utterly resigned, my heart surrendered to whatever fate had in store, I was happy. For a boon companion, I had great joy." Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Pages 224-227

"He, verily, asketh no recompense from you and is resigned to what God hath ordained for Him, and is entirely submissive to God’s Will." Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 125-130

" if it be God’s will, thou wilt gain it." Source:Bahá'í Reference Library - The Seven Valleys And the Four Valleys, Pages 36-43

"Nothing whatsoever is possible without His permission; no power can endure save through His power, and there is none other God but He." Source: Bahá'í Reference Library - The Kitáb-i-Íqán, Pages 161-200

So in fact, how can we gain or do anything if it is not aligned to God's will.

The difficulty, or the illusion, I speak of above, is coming to see that what ever we do, the moment I was born to my last breath, is all God's will and not one's own.

 

[JustWondering]

I strongly disagree: we clearly DO have free will (and hence, choice), as scripture asserts and as billions of us demonstrate every day!

Peace,

Bruce

So you adhere to the humans are bad camp? If we were supposed to be obidient doesn't that make god fallible?

 

[BruceDLimber]

We have what appears to be free will until we recognise God's will as greater than our own, as God's will is greater.

Glad we agree!

Bruce

 

[BruceDLimber]

So you adhere to the humans are bad camp?

Definitely not: quote the opposite, as is made clear in the Baha'i scriptures! I'll quote just one example:

"O SON OF SPIRIT!

"Noble I created thee; yet thou has abased thyself. Rise then unto that for which thou wast created.

--The Hidden Words, Part One, #20

(There are many more such statements.)

If we were supposed to be obedient doesn't that make god fallible?

Not in the least!

That's what free will is about: we're supposed to obey but have an option of whether to do so or not.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Copernicus]

That doesn't make sense to me. It goes with the same logic in calling a gun smith he's a murder because he makes guns.

He would be a murderer if he had absolute knowledge that a given gun he created would be used in a murder. Gun smiths, being human, do not have that kind of knowledge. God, being omniscient, does.