Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

[Revoltingest]

Here's what I'm reading right now:

Google search results for terms: "study unarmed black brown skin kill by police"

Eta: Also this: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793

This one.....
Police kill unarmed blacks more often, especially when they are women, study finds | The Source | Washington University in St. Louis
....had this oddity.....

“Agencies with more officers of color had significantly increased odds of committing unarmed fatalities, suggesting that current levels of agency diversity are not capable of achieving change,”

Of course, there are complexities to this.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

BLM-like worldviews attempt to put themselves in charge, declaring "because intersectionality" that no one else should have a hand in solutions. But luckily they're not in charge.

It also seems that they're not really in the business of problem solving.

Again, do you know what intersectionality is?

 

[Tambourine]

BLM-like worldviews attempt to put themselves in charge, declaring "because intersectionality" that no one else should have a hand in solutions. But luckily they're not in charge.

It also seems that they're not really in the business of problem solving.

Do you believe that people who point out problems have a moral obligation to also provide a readimade solution?

 

[icehorse]

Thats why a truce needs to happen now. Right?

locally, yup!

 

[icehorse]

Again, do you know what intersectionality is?

I believe so, do you?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I believe so, do you?

Yes.

 

[icehorse]

Do you believe that people who point out problems have a moral obligation to also provide a readimade solution?

And now we're back to the OP

Of course not. The point of the OP is SPECIFICALLY to say that mentioning a problem is distinct from providing a solution. I have no issue with BLM or anyone else bringing a problem to light. What I take issue with is the idea that - based on identity politics - only some people can offer solutions.

 

[PureX]

In a similar fashion, I'm not questioning that a black person living in a dangerous, impoverished community has a good handle on their problems. What I'm saying is that that doesn't make them experts in economics, or social studies, or urban renewal, or education and so on.

It does, however, give them a special insight into how those systems are currently failing the society they are supposed to be serving.

 

[Tambourine]

And now we're back to the OP

Of course not. The point of the OP is SPECIFICALLY to say that mentioning a problem is distinct from providing a solution. I have no issue with BLM or anyone else bringing a problem to light.

This post of yours suggests the opposite:

BLM-like worldviews attempt to put themselves in charge, declaring "because intersectionality" that no one else should have a hand in solutions. But luckily they're not in charge.

It also seems that they're not really in the business of problem solving.

What I take issue with is the idea that - based on identity politics - only some people can offer solutions.

If I remember correctly, you took issue with the pretty serious blowback against Steven Pinker publishing a hot take on an issue outside his speciality on his official Twitter account. If I remember further, at no point did Pinker offer any sort of solution to the problem of widespread police brutality and police racism that BLM are objecting to.

So we're nine pages into this thread and you are still talking about what is, as far as I can tell, a problem that exists entirely in potentia.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

And now we're back to the OP

Of course not. The point of the OP is SPECIFICALLY to say that mentioning a problem is distinct from providing a solution. I have no issue with BLM or anyone else bringing a problem to light. What I take issue with is the idea that - based on identity politics - only some people can offer solutions.

Well, here is an explanation of identity politics:
The laden phrase “identity politics” has come to signify a wide range of political activity and theorizing founded in the shared experiences of injustice of members of certain social groups. Rather than organizing solely around belief systems, programmatic manifestos, or party affiliation, identity political formations typically aim to secure the political freedom of a specific constituency marginalized within its larger context. Members of that constituency assert or reclaim ways of understanding their distinctiveness that challenge dominant characterizations, with the goal of greater self-determination.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/identity-politics/

So yes, in the strict sense you might have a point, but not in the broad sense. How? What does this mean: "Members of that constituency assert or reclaim ways of understanding their distinctiveness that challenge dominant characterizations, with the goal of greater self-determination."?

 

[icehorse]

This post of yours suggests the opposite:

If I remember correctly, you took issue with the pretty serious blowback against Steven Pinker publishing a hot take on an issue outside his speciality on his official Twitter account. If I remember further, at no point did Pinker offer any sort of solution to the problem of widespread police brutality and police racism that BLM are objecting to.

So we're nine pages into this thread and you are still talking about what is, as far as I can tell, a problem that exists entirely in potentia.

You seem unable to accept the Pinker example as being only loosely associated with the OP, so let's drop that.

As for "in potentia", your lack of knowledge about a thing doesn't render it non-existent

 

[PureX]

Finally, we're addressing the OP.

My claim is that there IS an issue when protestors claim that "unless you've lived it, you cannot have a voice in solving it".

I don't think that's what is actually being said. I think it's more along the lines of saying those who have not lived the through the problems, should not be in charge of 'fixing' them. It's not that they should be shut out completely. It's that they should not be in control of the reform process.

 

[Tambourine]

You seem unable to accept the Pinker example as being only loosely associated with the OP, so let's drop that.

It was literally the only example you offered after I had been pestering you for days. I encourage you to find a better one if you're not satisfied with my response to it.

As for "in potentia", your lack of knowledge about a thing doesn't render it non-existent

So far, you have absolutely refused to supply a single example of BLM dismissing perfectly acceptable solutions to the problem of police brutality/racism for reasons of "identity politics. You claim that this phenomenon is widespread, but are seemingly unable to offer absolutely anything at all in support of that claim.

What exactly should I take away from that, pray tell?

 

[icehorse]

I don't think that's what is actually being said. I think it's more along the lines of saying those who have not lived the through the problems, should not be in charge of 'fixing' them. It's not that they should be shut out completely. It's that they should not be in control of the reform process.

The same way that people with torn ACL's should have a say in surgeon's procedures? (sorry for the snark, but that's not far from what many intersectionalists propose)

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The same way that people with torn ACL's should have a say in surgeon's procedures? (sorry for the snark, but that's not far from what many intersectionalists propose)

That is a stupid argument. My life as my life is mine. A torn ACL is not my life as such.
Now I do hope you have a proper expert and not yourself running your life. Otherwise seek expert help immediately.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

The same way that people with torn ACL's should have a say in surgeon's procedures? (sorry for the snark, but that's not far from what many intersectionalists propose)

Standard medicine is currently inundated with cases where practitioners are not listening to the input of their patient and only relying on their third person reading of the patient's first person pain. As a result, things are being constantly missed, ignored, or simply not believed because the time, attention, and trust is not being given to patients to explore and explain their symptoms holistically.

How many times have you heard of orthopedic surgeons missing injuries in other places because they say, dismissively, 'it's probably just x'? Because I have, a lot.

Ironically occurs exceptionally higher with black women, who tend to have their symptoms ignored more than any other demographic.

 

[columbus]

It does, however, give them a special insight into how those systems are currently failing the society they are supposed to be serving.

In what way?

I don't think it does. Generally, the opposite.
Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

In what way?

I don't think it does. Generally, the opposite.
Tom

Evidence.
E.g. tell me what it is like to be an Aspie?

 

[Stevicus]

The set the place on fire by mis-using extension cords.
Btw, the place just had a new electrical system installed
per code & with permits.

I've heard of fires starting that way; overloading the socket or using the wrong kind of extension cord. I remember when I told my dad (who was an engineer) that I needed an extension cord for a space heater, he made sure I used the proper gauge. He also never wanted to use any light bulbs above 60 watts.

An all barely-post-adolescent guy household is indeed likely to be destructive.
Males & females together seem to have a moderating effect upon each other.
Of course, we can't discriminate on the basis of gender.
But I did learn to discriminate (legal, btw) against sports teams.
Football & hockey players are the worst.

I guess we probably could have sued them for gender discrimination, but it was the early 80s and we weren't particularly sue-happy.

 

[icehorse]

Standard medicine is currently inundated with cases where practitioners are not listening to the input of their patient and only relying on their third person reading of the patient's first person pain. As a result, things are being constantly missed, ignored, or simply not believed because the time, attention, and trust is not being given to patients to explore and explain their symptoms holistically.

How many times have you heard of orthopedic surgeons missing injuries in other places because they say, dismissively, 'it's probably just x'? Because I have, a lot.

Ironically occurs exceptionally higher with black women, who tend to have their symptoms ignored more than any other demographic.

This is another interesting topic (and BTW I largely agree with you on THIS point), but you're conflating the problem with the solution. IF we have confirmed a torn ACL, then it's almost certainly the case the the surgeon knows far better what to do than the patient.

The incidence of police fatally shooting anyone is very low, and it doesn't appear to be skewed along racial lines. Far more problematic is the income and wealth inequities in our society. So to BLM it might APPEAR that cops are the problem, but a more level-headed analysis would lead us to believe that cops aren't really the biggest problem by a long shot. Of course we can find horrific individual examples of cops doing horrible things. But if we follow only those examples (which BLM appears to be doing), then we'll be pursuing low impact solutions.