Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

[icehorse]

bingo.

both sides.

mass hysteria.

So, Dr. Icehorse... if that's the diagnosis, what's the treatment? Is there anything that can be done *now* to relieve the symptoms?

what's the mass hysteria on "the other side" ?

As for how to fix it:

- first of all *now* is an artificial constraint that's unlikely to work regardless. Do you think protests are going to fix anything "now"? How would we know we fixed "it"?

- the way to fix it is to rely on our old friends critical thinking and logic, not mass hysteria.

 

[columbus]

Take 2:
What causes culture, crime, bad parenting and so on? You shouldn't ask that question?

I do ask that question!
The problem I see with BLM is that they won't. Any question that cannot be answered with "white racism" is not allowed.

Why? Because then your narrative breaks down.

It's not my narrative. It's BLM narrative that breaks down under the data.

I mean it. Never ask a scientific question of causation for what you claim is the cause. Don't you dare ask what causes culture, crime, bad parenting and so on!

I understand that English isn't your first language and you have a system of logic that is quite personal and subjective.

But I am looking for evidence based solutions to a problem. Not just jumping on a social media bandwagon while young black men continue to be victims of violence.
Tom

 

[icehorse]

So how do you know that? Are you an expert?

I'm not an expert, never claimed to be one. But I know a few stats, and they lead me to believe that this is a hysterical response, not a logical one. What I'm not hearing from the protestors are well reasoned solutions. I've read the BLM website, no well reasoned, specific recommendations there.

To be fair, I have a sort of engineering bias. I'm biased towards concrete, workable solutions. That almost always starts with an "as objective as possible" description of the problem to be solved.

So, as I understand it, there are something like 10 million adversarial encounters between police and citizens in the US each year. And there are about 1000 fatal shootings. And black people are way less than half of those shootings. So it's probably not too far off to say that when a black person gets adversarial with a cop, they have a 1/30,000 chance of being killed. When I white person gets adversarial with a cop, it might be a little more dangerous, maybe 1/25,000.

So this is a problem? Sure. But where does it rank on our list of problems? Let's say that we go all out and cut those numbers in half. (And BTW, is it racist when an officer of color kills a citizen of color?) Maybe, just maybe, we could save 200 black lives / year. There are FAR MORE impactful ways we could improve the lives of the black community.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It might be a matter of perspective.
The one who pays to fix the window would call it "vandalism".

Correct, guilt and innocent are not objective like e.g. gravity. Those 2 are social facts. Social facts are subjective.

Here is an example from a fellow Scotsman of yours, David Hume. It is modernized but the core holds.
Imagine a situation you could observe yourself and with all the modern equipment you would want. Camera and all sorts of measuring devices.

Here is the situation: It is one human with a knife killing another human. Here is the question - Where do you see as see that it is wrong? Or where on the measured data do you see as see it is wrong? Wrong is not a fact like gravity. It is a human subjective evaluation or social fact.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I do ask that question!
...

What is the answer?

 

[Revoltingest]

Correct, guilt and innocent are not objective like e.g. gravity. Those 2 are social facts. Social facts are subjective.

Here is an example from a fellow Scotsman of yours, David Hume. It is modernized but the core holds.
Imagine a situation you could observe yourself and with all the modern equipment you would want. Camera and all sorts of measuring devices.

Here is the situation: It is one human with a knife killing another human. Here is the question - Where do you see as see that it is wrong? Or where on the measured data do you see as see it is wrong? Wrong is not a fact like gravity. It is a human subjective evaluation or social fact.

FYI, I don't argue that morality is true, inerrant, or universal.
Values & preferences are personal.
But we do share language, & it's useful to use common definitions.
One who would call vandalizing a window "not vandalism" wouldn't
be using a shared definition.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I'm not an expert, never claimed to be one. But I know a few stats, and they lead me to believe that this is a hysterical response, not a logical one. What I'm not hearing from the protestors are well reasoned solutions. I've read the BLM website, no well reasoned, specific recommendations there.

From their website:
In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Then you study what that is about and all the data on that and you study the scholarly literature on it. What they want is clear and the data on what is wrong is clear. PS you don't have to read it all. Read or listen to the experts on it. It is a rather short summary of main points.
Have you do that?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

FYI, I don't argue that morality is true, inerrant, or universal.
Values & preferences are personal.
But we do share language, & it's useful to use common definitions.
One who would call vandalizing a window "not vandalism" wouldn't
be using a shared definition.

Well, the debate was about guilty of vandalism and what innocent was. I can go deeper if you want.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well, the debate was about guilty of vandalism and what innocent was. I can go deeper if you want.

I'll pass.
It's enuf to register my objection to vandalizing windows.

 

[icehorse]

From their website:
In the years since, we’ve committed to struggling together and to imagining and creating a world free of anti-Blackness, where every Black person has the social, economic, and political power to thrive.

Then you study what that is about and all the data on that and you study the scholarly literature on it. What they want is clear and the data on what is wrong is clear. PS you don't have to read it all. Read or listen to the experts on it. It is a rather short summary of main points.
Have you do that?

Okay, so name one clear, concrete proposal that BLM has made. So far, all you've said, and all I've read are lofty, ambiguous, abstract visions. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's not sufficient.

 

[columbus]

What is the answer?

Honestly
The answer would be long and complex and take a lot of effort on my part.

I doubt that would be worthwhile conversing with someone who doesn't understand that throwing a brick through someone else's window makes them guilty of vandalism. You have your own logic, morality, and legal system. The rest of us don't share it.
I wouldn't know where to start.

It would be like trying to teach math to someone who didn't believe that numbers have objective meaning and therefore 2+3 always equals 5. If you prefer to live in a world where arithmetic is an opinion I'm not going to try to explain reality.
Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay, so name one clear, concrete proposal that BLM has made. So far, all you've said, and all I've read are lofty, ambiguous, abstract visions. There is nothing wrong with that, but it's not sufficient.

Don't ask BLM, ask primarily black scholars who agree with BLM.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Honestly
The answer would be long and complex and take a lot of effort on my part.

I doubt that would be worthwhile conversing with someone who doesn't understand that throwing a brick through someone else's window makes them guilty of vandalism. You have your own logic, morality, and legal system. The rest of us don't share it.
I wouldn't know where to start.

It would be like trying to teach math to someone who didn't believe that numbers have objective meaning and therefore 2+3 always equals 5. If you prefer to live in a world where arithmetic is an opinion I'm not going to try to explain reality.
Tom

It could also equal 11.

So read this one:
Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

 

[columbus]

It could also equal 11.

I know.
I live in a world full of religionists. People making up irrational beliefs is just something I have to deal with.

So read this one:
Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM

I did.
It wasn't worth responding.
Tom

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

...
I did.
It wasn't worth responding.
Tom

So you use logic and objective evidence to arrive at that. "It wasn't worth responding." Then please do so.

 

[icehorse]

Don't ask BLM, ask primarily black scholars who agree with BLM.

Okay, what's one specific, concrete proposal that the scholars have put forward?

And perhaps more importantly, why would their skin color matter in assessing the quality of their proposals?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Okay, what's one specific, concrete proposal that the scholars have put forward?

And perhaps more importantly, why would their skin color matter in assessing the quality of their proposals?

First the last one. I have already asked you about that up thread. So we will deal with this one first:

What is better? An expert with general knowledge of the problem or an expert with personal and general knowledge of the problem?

 

[dybmh]

et's say we removed all racism from policing.

... let's say we removed all racism from police *training*.

Not sure how to do that though since so much of this training happens on the job while on patrol and during shift changes.

 

[Revoltingest]

... let's say we removed all racism from police *training*.

I suspect that there's little to no racism in training.
Applicants bring it with them, & it's reinforced (perhaps
added to) in the culture they dwell & work in.

Not sure how to do that though since so much of this training happens on the job while on patrol and during shift changes.

I proposed a thought experiment to consider the outcome.
Please, consider it again, this time accepting the premises,
so that we can evaluate the conclusion.

But a 2nd question...
Why consider only racism of white cops?
We have an even greater gender disparity, ie, 95% male shooting victims.
Why not consider general police brutality, which harms far greater numbers than blacks?
Why ignore black cops being among the killers?
OK....that was more than just a 2nd question.
You got me thinking of more.
It's your fault !

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

... let's say we removed all racism from police *training*.

Not sure how to do that though since so much of this training happens on the job while on patrol and during shift changes.

I have seen a proposal of how to do that. There are if you look police officers those, who know how to do it.
But there are not that many, so you can't do it at once. But here it is.
Take a police department. Fire all if you have to and start over. Localize the beat cops and "integrate" them as citizens in their beat and give them training in that also.