Tambourine
Well-Known Member
When you talk about "specific, concrete proposals", do you include ideas such as "abolish income inequality all across the US"?
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Problems vs. Solutions and criticizing (e.g.), BLM
- Thread starter icehorse
- Start date
Why would I? I can't have a rational discussion with you.
2+3 might equal 11.
That makes even less sense than your proposal to fire all the cops. Then assign the cops to neighborhood beats, as if there were any cops to assign.
Tom
That's a goal, not a proposal.
What about the one who makes a living out of fixing windows?
They call it vandalism too.
But they're less bothered by it.
I think it's probably more complicated than that. I don't think police training would actually be racist; I would hope that the actual training process would be just the opposite. That's what gets to me about this and so many other racist incidents that keep cropping up. We've been through this before. We've already had a Civil Rights movement. Didn't people get the message the first time around?
But it's not just the cops. It's also the situations they're thrown into. There are some cities and neighborhoods which are in pretty rough shape, where the people live in poverty or near-poverty conditions. Alcoholism is high, as is drug abuse. And with drugs come gangs, which is another problem the police and the community have to contend with. Educational opportunities are limited, access to healthcare is also limited (and worse in rural areas).
Cops are sent into these neighborhoods, which are already fraught with angst, anger, and cumulative frustration of people who have gotten the short end of the stick all their lives. The cops are also well aware that many of the people in these neighborhoods won't exactly be happy to see them. A lot of these police shootings often start out as routine stops for petty violations. (One of the revelations that came out after the Ferguson riots is that the city had grown so dependent on collecting fines as a source of revenue that the police, in effect, became the "revenuers," who are universally disliked everywhere.)
The "war on drugs" is another serious thorn in the overall problem. (It's also what feeds the gangs and cartels.) So many incidents also seem to crop up because cops are required to "search for drugs" however and whenever they can. And if they can't find any drugs, they'll plant them on people just so they can do something, I guess. The whole "war on drugs" is a sick and tragic charade that badly needs to come to an end. And it's widely believed that racism was the original motivation for outlawing drugs in the first place.
It may not necessarily be a case of individual cops being racist or harboring some deep-seated racial hatred. That is probably true for some, although even for those whom it's not true, they're still in the job of enforcing law and order as defined by a system which still maintains certain structures and has lingering vestiges which contribute to systemic racism.
It might seem like a simple solution to simply "train" cops to not be racist, but I'm not sure if that's what we're dealing with here. To some people, cops represent the rawest form of "power" from a ruling authority that a lot of people don't like very much. Police officers are also compelled to assert their authority and power as a duly appointed law enforcement officer, if they find it necessary to do so. But the power doesn't come from themselves individually; it comes from the system of which they are an integral and indispensable part.
Some cops try to help out and sometimes act more as social workers. Like the recent story about the cop shown playing basketball with the kids. Some try to do what they can to relate to the community, and perhaps more of that can be encouraged.
I don't think there's any "quick fix" to the problem. I also think that there are certain political barriers to bringing about any serious change which might address the problems at hand. It would require a serious restructuring of the nation's economic and political system, which both parties are strongly against. So, the police are in a position where they have taken a duty to defend and enforce the laws of a morally bankrupt system.
In other words, I don't think it's necessarily that the cops are out there gunning for black people intentionally (although there may be some), but it's just the system is set up in such a way that this is usually what results.
They probably get a lot of work this way.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
Okay, as to fire cops, then hire new ones.
Okay, I notice you have given no evidence that morality is objective. Are you one of those believers, who don't understand that their beliefs are just that beliefs and without evidence.
So again, that you in effect say that morality is objective, doesn't make it so, just because you say it. If I were to say that God is all loving, then it is not so, just because I say so. It is the same with you say that morality is objective. That is not so, just because you say so.
Further you seem to indicate that morality is tied to logic, so could you explain that?
Tambourine
Well-Known Member
Okay then. Have you observed anybody making "specific, concrete proposals" that were then rejected by BLM?
Back when I managed a lot of property, I spent many thousands
per year on repairs due to vandalism....mostly by the residents.
People do get joy from breaking things. And these were
students at an elite university.
Tip for renting houses to a group of students....
- No sports teams, eg, baseball, football, hockey, wrestling.
They're of a culture of violence, & are celebrities protected by
the university & local cops. Exception: Gymnasts are OK.
- Mixed groups, ie, boys & girls, are best. For whatever reason,
they tend to be the most responsible.
(Note: they're not men & women yet...that happens in late 20s.)
Didn't they want to get their deposit back?
It seems like they do it differently around here from the way they did it when I was in school. Many appear to rent by the room instead of the whole house.
Of course. But the mental link between actions & consequences
isn't well established in 18 to 22 year old kids. One group did about
$250,000 in damage to a property (accidental though). They wanted
their deposit back. I kept it.
Renting rooms is a legal nightmare for landlords. No single tenant
is responsible for the common area. But renting to a group makes
the entire building their shared ("joint & several") responsibility.
And the landlord needn't deal with inter-roommate dramas.
Net income is much higher renting to groups.
For a while, I had a great business converting rooming houses
into single family & duplex homes.
BLM-like worldviews attempt to put themselves in charge, declaring "because intersectionality" that no one else should have a hand in solutions. But luckily they're not in charge.
It also seems that they're not really in the business of problem solving.
mikkel_the_dane
My own religion
How you know what intersectionality is?
They must have destroyed the whole house. Was it something like this?
When I was in college, I and two other guys were looking for a rental house, and one place we went into said "well, we always have problems whenever we rent a house to three or four guys" and steered us away. I guess he thought we were messy guys (which wasn't far from the truth).
They set the place on fire by mis-using extension cords.
Btw, the place just had a new electrical system installed
per code & with permits.
An all barely-post-adolescent guy household is indeed likely to be destructive.
Males & females together seem to have a moderating effect upon each other.
Of course, we can't discriminate on the basis of gender.
But I did learn to discriminate (legal, btw) against sports teams.
Football & hockey players are the worst.
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
(( please forgive this hastily written reply from my tablet ))
I think it's complicated. Right now I see it as a culture war. Black and Brown citizens and their supporters vs. The Law Enforcement Culture. Viewing it as a war means the first step is organizing a temporary truce, and coordinating talks between the BLM movement and Federal, State, and Local Law enforcement.
During these talks, an issues list needs to be developed, those issues need to be prioritized... I've said this before. However I will grant that the underlying problem does not appear to be racism. The root cause, afternreading the replies tomthis thread, appear to me to be excessivemuse of force, although systemic racism is making the underlying problem more severe.
Regarding solutions, There are good ideas out there that will work, but they all cost money to implement.
@mikkel_the_dane , Im sorry my friend but a complete defund and dismantle of Local LE is a bad idea for many reasons. Mostly becuase it validates and inflames the current problem which is: a culture war between citizens and LE. If you're not in the LE community, it's a little difficult to see it as a culture. But it is. There are legacy families in LE and military that trace their roots right back to the beginning of America as a nation. Defunding and dismantling Local LE is perceived as a direct assualt against that culture and those families. That is like throwing red meat to those extremists on both sides of the issue. I see that as counter lroductive. Defunding and dismatling does more harm than good, imo.
The war needs a truce, protesters need to take a 1 week break as a sign of good will. Then use that week to nail down how much money is needed to properly fund new oversight, outreach, and tech to prevent excessive use of force.
@icehorse , you mentioned *now* as an artificial construct. I disagree. Organizing a temporary truce is something that needs to happen now. Also, excesssive use of force is happening now, everynight here in Portland, and it needs to stop. Yes, the protestors are inciting the excessive force, but, The LE does not need to take the bait. Everytime they (LE) take the bait it throws red meat to the extremists in the BLM protest community...
Thats why a truce needs to happen now. Right?
@Revoltingest , I'm going to see if I can find the study that tracks unarmed black and brown victims of excessive use of force. If i recall, there is one study that measures it, but it was not peer reviewed.
Regarding the questions u asked about why the focus is on Black and Brown people instead of other demographics. I think its a bit of hysteria, but also it's topical and current, and easy to see the systemic problems when looking at the interactions between black and brown people and non black and brown police officers. As I said earlier, Im starting to see my own bias has clouded my judgement on the root cause of this culture war between protesters and LE. I still see signs of systemic racism, but Im starting to see that this racism is not the underlying issue. It makes the real root cause much worse, though.
Justification of excessive use of force against peaceful protesters.
I think it's complicated. Right now I see it as a culture war. Black and Brown citizens and their supporters vs. The Law Enforcement Culture. Viewing it as a war means the first step is organizing a temporary truce, and coordinating talks between the BLM movement and Federal, State, and Local Law enforcement.
During these talks, an issues list needs to be developed, those issues need to be prioritized... I've said this before. However I will grant that the underlying problem does not appear to be racism. The root cause, afternreading the replies tomthis thread, appear to me to be excessivemuse of force, although systemic racism is making the underlying problem more severe.
Regarding solutions, There are good ideas out there that will work, but they all cost money to implement.
@mikkel_the_dane , Im sorry my friend but a complete defund and dismantle of Local LE is a bad idea for many reasons. Mostly becuase it validates and inflames the current problem which is: a culture war between citizens and LE. If you're not in the LE community, it's a little difficult to see it as a culture. But it is. There are legacy families in LE and military that trace their roots right back to the beginning of America as a nation. Defunding and dismantling Local LE is perceived as a direct assualt against that culture and those families. That is like throwing red meat to those extremists on both sides of the issue. I see that as counter lroductive. Defunding and dismatling does more harm than good, imo.
The war needs a truce, protesters need to take a 1 week break as a sign of good will. Then use that week to nail down how much money is needed to properly fund new oversight, outreach, and tech to prevent excessive use of force.
@icehorse , you mentioned *now* as an artificial construct. I disagree. Organizing a temporary truce is something that needs to happen now. Also, excesssive use of force is happening now, everynight here in Portland, and it needs to stop. Yes, the protestors are inciting the excessive force, but, The LE does not need to take the bait. Everytime they (LE) take the bait it throws red meat to the extremists in the BLM protest community...
Thats why a truce needs to happen now. Right?
@Revoltingest , I'm going to see if I can find the study that tracks unarmed black and brown victims of excessive use of force. If i recall, there is one study that measures it, but it was not peer reviewed.
Regarding the questions u asked about why the focus is on Black and Brown people instead of other demographics. I think its a bit of hysteria, but also it's topical and current, and easy to see the systemic problems when looking at the interactions between black and brown people and non black and brown police officers. As I said earlier, Im starting to see my own bias has clouded my judgement on the root cause of this culture war between protesters and LE. I still see signs of systemic racism, but Im starting to see that this racism is not the underlying issue. It makes the real root cause much worse, though.
That would be useful.
But FYI, I'd expect them to be more often subject to such abuse.
I see racism as one of the underlying issues.
It would perhaps have been the biggest some decades ago,
but nowadays government thuggery, sexism, & incompetence
have eclipsed it.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Each locality will have different chalenges with LE profiling the citizens they are sworn to protect. Just like there are legacy families in LE and Military, there are legacy families of offenders, where each and evey member of the family has a criminal record. This info btw comes from working with and around Local LE, but Im not LE myself.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Here's what I'm reading right now:
Google search results for terms: "study unarmed black brown skin kill by police"
Eta: Also this: https://www.pnas.org/content/116/34/16793