Problems with Belief when it comes to a Christian and Islamic God...

[leibowde84]

I think you misunderstood me

Please explain, then. You seem to be demanding an alternative explanation.

 

[leibowde84]

Why must science figure it out

I didn't say it must, but there is no reason to think that it won't be able to some day.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Robert,

in a previous post you seemed content to accept the idea of a realm or existence that just is (to quote your words).
So, why do you insist to ask where everything comes from? What prevents you from contemplating the possibility that the laws also belong to this realm of existence that just is?

Ciao

- viole

Hello Madam,

Why is that a better answer? Is it more plausible to say consciousness evolves however it chooses - thoughts can surely do that, right - than to say physical matter can evolve which ever way it chooses? You seem to have the ability to accept matter and laws just being there.
And how can "laws" exist somewhere? Where do they exist?

 

[Robert.Evans]

If it was designed why have 99.9% of species on earth gone extinct?

Evolving consciousness. Don't thoughts go extinct?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Complex things must be explained. I believe the multiverse, but that does not explain everything. Everything we know of comes from something simpler. So where does the MV come from?

I have no idea, and neither do you. Nobody does. I'll allow for the possibility that God exists if you allow for the possibility that he doesn't.

 

[leibowde84]

Okay. So how then can he be good? Evil comes from him.

re-birth- yes!

Good.

Then how is he all powerful?

Cats catch mice and play with them until they are dead. Evil through and through.

He does not know everything? So how does he know the beginning from the end? How did he know his son would die at the right time on the right day for the sin of the world?

I still say though that God must have evil within him to do this; so how can he be good. If he is not good, how do you know you are saved?

As I explained, God creating evil does not mean that God is not good. In my beliefs, evil is the tool that enables us to learn during life. If everything was peaches and creme, we wouldn't learn. And, it seems to me, that certain wisdom must be acquired organically rather than God just giving it to us from the get-go.

Next, I don't believe that God is all-powerful, or at least he chooses not to be. The only way that God can have total control and omniscience would be if free-will did not exist. Without free-will, we can't progress in understanding and wisdom. So, I think that when God granted us free-will, he also let go of omnipotence.

Cats catching mice and playing with them is not evil. That is a misuse of the term itself. Cats, to the best of our current knowledge, do not have the ability to recognize the pain they are causing. Because of evolution, cats have developed a brain that allows them to be the best hunters possible ... and they are pretty damn good. They are wired to kill to survive, and, because of this, they did not develop empathy for their prey. They wouldn't have made it very long if they had developed the ability to recognize value in their prey. So, they aren't "evil", unless you treat them as if they understand what they are dooing, rather than acting on instinct.

Further, cats were used by humans since domestication to rid houses of pests. So, it is pretty "evil" to blame cats for them torturing their prey when we have encouraged it for thousands of years. Thus, the term "evil" cannot be used to describe cats, unless you completely change the meaning of the term.

For your final questions, God gave up the ability to know our futures because of free-will. We don't act instinctually, and have the ability to contemplate. But, this freedom enables us to learn from mistakes and truly see the damage that evil can do. The alegory of the Garden of Eden is a great example. Before the apple was eaten, there was no evil. We were protected by our own ignorance. But, we had no freedom. With freedom comes evil, but also understanding, experience, wisdom, etc. As for him knowing that his son would die, I'm not sure that he did. I really don't think it's important at all. Jesus' death does not matter nearly as much as his teachings regarding compassion, genorosity, love, friendship, inclusiveness, etc. That is what concerns me in scripture. But, I certainly don't think that Christ is the only way to achieve this learning. There are many paths to God.

 

[leibowde84]

I have no idea, and neither do you. Nobody does. I'll allow for the possibility that God exists if you allow for the possibility that he doesn't.

Well-put. I've always found this peculiar. Theists seem to think that it is ridiculous to assume that God doesn't exist, but seem to ignore the obvious possibility that he doesn't. We should all recognize the possibility that God could be an illusion, whether we believe in him or not.

 

[leibowde84]

Evolving consciousness. Don't thoughts go extinct?

No, thoughts do not go extinct. But, I'm not sure what you mean by "evolving consciousness". Can you explain how that would account for the vast majority of species going extinct?

 

[Robert.Evans]

As I explained, God creating evil does not mean that God is not good. In my beliefs, evil is the tool that enables us to learn during life. If everything was peaches and creme, we wouldn't learn. And, it seems to me, that certain wisdom must be acquired organically rather than God just giving it to us from the get-go.

Next, I don't believe that God is all-powerful, or at least he chooses not to be. The only way that God can have total control and omniscience would be if free-will did not exist. Without free-will, we can't progress in understanding and wisdom. So, I think that when God granted us free-will, he also let go of omnipotence.

Cats catching mice and playing with them is not evil. That is a misuse of the term itself. Cats, to the best of our current knowledge, do not have the ability to recognize the pain they are causing. Because of evolution, cats have developed a brain that allows them to be the best hunters possible ... and they are pretty damn good. They are wired to kill to survive, and, because of this, they did not develop empathy for their prey. They wouldn't have made it very long if they had developed the ability to recognize value in their prey. So, they aren't "evil", unless you treat them as if they understand what they are dooing, rather than acting on instinct.

Further, cats were used by humans since domestication to rid houses of pests. So, it is pretty "evil" to blame cats for them torturing their prey when we have encouraged it for thousands of years. Thus, the term "evil" cannot be used to describe cats, unless you completely change the meaning of the term.

For your final questions, God gave up the ability to know our futures because of free-will. We don't act instinctually, and have the ability to contemplate. But, this freedom enables us to learn from mistakes and truly see the damage that evil can do. The alegory of the Garden of Eden is a great example. Before the apple was eaten, there was no evil. We were protected by our own ignorance. But, we had no freedom. With freedom comes evil, but also understanding, experience, wisdom, etc. As for him knowing that his son would die, I'm not sure that he did. I really don't think it's important at all. Jesus' death does not matter nearly as much as his teachings regarding compassion, genorosity, love, friendship, inclusiveness, etc. That is what concerns me in scripture. But, I certainly don't think that Christ is the only way to achieve this learning. There are many paths to God.

If God creates evil, in whatever way, it must be within him, so how can he be good? If he is not totally good, then how are you saved.
I do not see an explanation how evil can manifest itself in good and not taint it.

The resurrection is the most important.
The only way to the FATHER is through the son.

We disagree on evil.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Well-put. I've always found this peculiar. Theists seem to think that it is ridiculous to assume that God doesn't exist, but seem to ignore the obvious possibility that he doesn't. We should all recognize the possibility that God could be an illusion, whether we believe in him or not.

Absolutely not!

 

[Robert.Evans]

No, thoughts do not go extinct. But, I'm not sure what you mean by "evolving consciousness". Can you explain how that would account for the vast majority of species going extinct?

Thoughts don't go extinct. What did you do in the second week after birth, first Tuesday, three o'clock?

 

[leibowde84]

If God creates evil, in whatever way, it must be within him, so how can he be good? If he is not totally good, then how are you saved.
I do not see an explanation how evil can manifest itself in good and not taint it.

The resurrection is the most important.
The only way to the FATHER is through the son.

We disagree on evil.

Evil is not within God. Evil is bi-product of human free-will. So, evil is within us inherently, but not within God. And, as I explained before, I believe that God allows evil to exist as a tool to further our understanding. Thus, God is good, and evil does not manifest itself within God.

You are free to believe that the resurection is important, and you are also free to believe that the only way to God is through Christ, but I don't. Actually, I think that notion goes against what I consider to be the true spirit of Jesus' teachings. That seems to (obviously) be the Gospel Writers adding in their own nonsense in an attempt to draw people into Christianity. But, that's just my perogative. You are welcome to yours. Neither of us know which is right ... that I know for certain.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Absolutely not!

Oh, go on! Be an atheist for a day, live dangerously!

 

[leibowde84]

Thoughts don't go extinct. What did you do in the second week after birth, first Tuesday, three o'clock?

Those are "memories", which are stored in a very specific part of the brain, and can be lost due to brain development, trauma, brain damage, altzeimers, etc. They don't go "extinct", at least not in the context we are using. The term "extinct" is defined, in this context, as having no living members of a group. The group cannot come back because there is no way for the DNA to be passed on. They are out of luck.

And, who knows, maybe my memories from very early childhood are still present in my brain and the only issue is that I cannot access them anymore. It is possible.

 

[leibowde84]

Absolutely not!

Why? It is hypocritical to think it unreasonable to not allow for the possibility that God exists, then turn around and refuse to acknowledge the obvious possibility that God might be an illusion. I believe in God, but I certainly understand that I could be wrong.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Evil is not within God. Evil is bi-product of human free-will. So, evil is within us inherently, but not within God. And, as I explained before, I believe that God allows evil to exist as a tool to further our understanding. Thus, God is good, and evil does not manifest itself within God.

You do believe that EVERYTHING comes from God, don't you? If so, then evil must come from your God and therefore, how can he be good?

You are free to believe that the resurection is important, and you are also free to believe that the only way to God is through Christ, but I don't. Actually, I think that notion goes against what I consider to be the true spirit of Jesus' teachings. That seems to (obviously) be the Gospel Writers adding in their own nonsense in an attempt to draw people into Christianity. But, that's just my perogative. You are welcome to yours. Neither of us know which is right ... that I know for certain.

We know what is right by that which has been written. I have no idea how you can say that the resurrection is not important, if that was what you were saying. That is the fundamental cornerstone and foundation of everything. Nothing exists without it, nothing continues without it. Are you saying, to you, he died for nothing? I am grieved at this moment in time by your words if that is what you mean.

 

[Sand Dancer]

.

What's your 2-cent about this?

I think that view of God makes people feel secure and safe. It's a defense mechanism. Hebrews used God as a tribal warrior deity, so they felt they had a blessing to go and kill the other tribes in order to take their land.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Those are "memories", which are stored in a very specific part of the brain, and can be lost due to brain development, trauma, brain damage, altzeimers, etc. They don't go "extinct", at least not in the context we are using. The term "extinct" is defined, in this context, as having no living members of a group. The group cannot come back because there is no way for the DNA to be passed on. They are out of luck.

And, who knows, maybe my memories from very early childhood are still present in my brain and the only issue is that I cannot access them anymore. It is possible.

So, in layman's terms, and without making an issue out of everything, they are extinct, or to put it another way, dead, or asleep- take your pick.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Why? It is hypocritical to think it unreasonable to not allow for the possibility that God exists, then turn around and refuse to acknowledge the obvious possibility that God might be an illusion. I believe in God, but I certainly understand that I could be wrong.

Absolutely not! You only believe because He allows you to. That is Grace. You tread on thin ice. Faith is the evidence of things not seen - as it is written. That evidence is his son. Twice now you have almost denied him!

 

[Robert.Evans]

I think that view of God makes people feel secure and safe. It's a defense mechanism. Hebrews used God as a tribal warrior deity, so they felt they had a blessing to go and kill the other tribes in order to take their land.

I don't feel safe and secure. Perhaps non-believers feel safe and secure in though own rule based life.