Problems with Belief when it comes to a Christian and Islamic God...

[Etritonakin]

I truly find that belief in the God of Christianity and Islam to be odd.

Both systems of belief believe that God wanted to save everyone...or at least save who want to be saved, and punish those who sin or don't believe in him. Those that are saved go to paradise and those who don't, end up in hell - the whole "afterlife" shebang.

He is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing and eternal.

With tens or even hundreds of millions praying everyday, at different times of the days (remember, there's time zones), and with hundreds of thousands if not millions of people dying each year, then God would have to listen to all these prayers and to judge each soul after have died.

God being eternal and being outside of time and all, where do God have anything else to do, other than listening to prayers, and judging and sentencing each soul to destined afterlife?

This has to be time-consuming, not to mention a very boring job to do.

In the real world, each court, especially in big cities, have bus-loads of bus-load of cases to be heard, and they all required for each case to be reviewed and processed before any hearing, and if necessarily trials.

Don't God have better things to do with his time than judging souls or listening to prayers?

Perhaps, 1400 or 2000 years back, the world population was probably much smaller than today. But now with population heading towards 6 billion people, I don't see how God could really spend so much of his time with humans.

Both the Qur'an and bible make God out as someone who play at being personal confessor, judge and creator, and that's what make both Christianity and Islam such ridiculous religions.

What's your 2-cent about this?

The children of God are corrected and saved more perfectly than the children of men -though the children of men become the children of God.

 

[gnostic]

I do not use the word "religion" much. So, theology and the believe in intelligence as being the instigator of all things has nothing whatsoever to do with superstition, nothing. It is fact.

Typical empty response.

Get this, Robert.

"Fact" as you called it, required something that can be verify it is a "fact" - it's called EVIDENCE.

What you have is faith, not fact. They are just your faith and your personal belief, something akin to having personal opinion.

Everyone can have personal opinion, and apparently everyone can any belief they want to. Having faith or belief, is not a fact.

Without evidences (or fact), faith is nothing more than wishful thinking, and wishful thinking also fall under superstition.

 

[Glaurung]

What's your 2-cent about this?

There was numerous ways I considered addressing your post, but frankly you're not making much of a coherent point.

 

[JoStories]

I truly find that belief in the God of Christianity and Islam to be odd.

Both systems of belief believe that God wanted to save everyone...or at least save who want to be saved, and punish those who sin or don't believe in him. Those that are saved go to paradise and those who don't, end up in hell - the whole "afterlife" shebang.

He is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing and eternal.

With tens or even hundreds of millions praying everyday, at different times of the days (remember, there's time zones), and with hundreds of thousands if not millions of people dying each year, then God would have to listen to all these prayers and to judge each soul after have died.

God being eternal and being outside of time and all, where do God have anything else to do, other than listening to prayers, and judging and sentencing each soul to destined afterlife?

This has to be time-consuming, not to mention a very boring job to do.

In the real world, each court, especially in big cities, have bus-loads of bus-load of cases to be heard, and they all required for each case to be reviewed and processed before any hearing, and if necessarily trials.

Don't God have better things to do with his time than judging souls or listening to prayers?

Perhaps, 1400 or 2000 years back, the world population was probably much smaller than today. But now with population heading towards 6 billion people, I don't see how God could really spend so much of his time with humans.

Both the Qur'an and bible make God out as someone who play at being personal confessor, judge and creator, and that's what make both Christianity and Islam such ridiculous religions.

What's your 2-cent about this?

IMO, you are trying to fit, as most monotheistic faiths do, God and an understanding of God into finite and human terms. But, that said, for those who follow these faiths, they provide the follower solace and a sense of community. I don;t believe God can be characterized as such and further, I also believe that these human terms, such as you point out, are just conveniences. I think Quintessence made the most sense with post #2 with regard to your issues here. That is my two cents.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hello Gnostic. It's been a while. I hope things are good with you

I'm just wondering, is there a specific reason for not adding Judaism to the list, or maybe it was not intended?

 

[raph]

@ op
I just want to answer your question, and to do that, I must say that the God concept in your argumentation has nothing to do with the God concept of Christianity or Islam.

You mentioned that God is above time, so you cant say things like "God doesnt have time for this " or "God wouldnt waste time with this". The self subsisting, the allmighty God has got time for everything. He created time like Da Vinci created Mona Lisa.

And why does He do that? Why does He send His Son to die for us, nourish us and create us from Al Alaq? Why does He burn us in His fire?

Because He loves us. Wouldnt you do everything possible , if you truly loved somebody? He cares for us, because He loves us.

 

[Muffled]

I believe it makes perfect sense that God is Creator, Confessor, Savior and Judge.

 

[Muffled]

They didn't write Abrahamic deity, they wrote Christian and Islamic god. Is that even the same god? I don't think so. Islam considers the bible to be corrupted

I believe that is incorrect. There are followers of Islam who believe that but the text does not say so although there is a way the text can be misinterpreted to say so.

I believe he is the God I recognize from the Bible and the Holy Spirit in me confirms it.

 

[gnostic]

Hello Gnostic. It's been a while. I hope things are good with you

I'm just wondering, is there a specific reason for not adding Judaism to the list, or maybe it was not intended?

Hi smart guy. It has been long time, indeed.

Judaism don't go out of their way and try to convert people outside of the Jewish line. They do accept people who do want to join and follow Judaism, but unlike Islam and Christianity, it is not mandated.

Do you understand that?

And though Judaism fall under the category of being "Abrahamic", unlike the Islam and Christianity, there is no concept that if you do good, you go heaven, but if you do bad, that you will go to hell and get punished. That notion of afterlife in heaven and hell, is foreign to Judaism.

In fact, this afterlife business come from pagan religions, by the Hellenistic Greek and their Egyptian neighbor. Christianity and the early Christians (referring to the 1st century Christians) were influenced by these new ideas. Islam is just Muhammad's version of replacement theology of Christianity (as well as of Judaism).

Stories, like Solomon being able to command winds, jinns and birds, and even talk to ants in Qur'an, were originally derived from rabbinic folk legend (from the midrash and aggerdah).

Religions and cultures always borrow ideas and concepts from other religions and other cultures. Islam is no different to Christianity in that respect.

You just have to know the history of that region, during those times.

The whole notion of the afterlife is not really present in Judaism.

Have you read the bible, particularly the Hebrew Tanakh or what the Christian called the "Old Testament"?

God never promised afterlife to Abraham. That Abraham was righteous, virtuous, good and faithful in god's eyes, he was rewarded with covenant for his descendants especially the line of Isaac and Jacob. And while he still lived, he had children in his old age, got to stay in Canaan, and was quite wealthy. That's Abraham's reward, while he lived; that was Abraham's heaven: heaven on earth. There is no Abraham living in Paradise for ever and ever, after his death.

The Jews believe that whatever punishment or reward will be met out while they are alive. To them, the whole judgement in the afterlife is a myth that's propagated by Christians and Muslims, not by their Judaism.

I would include Judaism in this thread, if they believe as you do or as Christians do. But they don't.

That's why don't include Judaism or Jews in this thread, because their belief are profoundly different to your religion and that of the Christian's. So, no Guy, it was intended.

 

[gnostic]

There was numerous ways I considered addressing your post, but frankly you're not making much of a coherent point.

Oh...ok.

 

[gnostic]

You mentioned that God is above time, so you cant say things like "God doesnt have time for this " or "God wouldnt waste time with this". The self subsisting, the allmighty God has got time for everything. He created time like Da Vinci created Mona Lisa.

So you say...

Except that da Vinci was a real person, an artist, who actually painted that portrait. There is no evidence that link this universe and your invisible creator together, that just your belief.

 

[Smart_Guy]

Hi smart guy. It has been long time, indeed.

Judaism don't go out of their way and try to convert people outside of the Jewish line. They do accept people who do want to join and follow Judaism, but unlike Islam and Christianity, it is not mandated.

Do you understand that?

And though Judaism fall under the category of being "Abrahamic", unlike the Islam and Christianity, there is no concept that if you do good, you go heaven, but if you do bad, that you will go to hell and get punished. That notion of afterlife in heaven and hell, is foreign to Judaism.

In fact, this afterlife business come from pagan religions, by the Hellenistic Greek and their Egyptian neighbor. Christianity and the early Christians (referring to the 1st century Christians) were influenced by these new ideas. Islam is just Muhammad's version of replacement theology of Christianity (as well as of Judaism).

Stories, like Solomon being able to command winds, jinns and birds, and even talk to ants in Qur'an, were originally derived from rabbinic folk legend (from the midrash and aggerdah).

Religions and cultures always borrow ideas and concepts from other religions and other cultures. Islam is no different to Christianity in that respect.

You just have to know the history of that region, during those times.

The whole notion of the afterlife is not really present in Judaism.

Have you read the bible, particularly the Hebrew Tanakh or what the Christian called the "Old Testament"?

God never promised afterlife to Abraham. That Abraham was righteous, virtuous, good and faithful in god's eyes, he was rewarded with covenant for his descendants especially the line of Isaac and Jacob. And while he still lived, he had children in his old age, got to stay in Canaan, and was quite wealthy. That's Abraham's reward, while he lived; that was Abraham's heaven: heaven on earth. There is no Abraham living in Paradise for ever and ever, after his death.

The Jews believe that whatever punishment or reward will be met out while they are alive. To them, the whole judgement in the afterlife is a myth that's propagated by Christians and Muslims, not by their Judaism.

I would include Judaism in this thread, if they believe as you do or as Christians do. But they don't.

That's why don't include Judaism or Jews in this thread, because their belief are profoundly different to your religion and that of the Christian's. So, no Guy, it was intended.

Understood. Thank you for clarifying

 

[viole]

The point was, I think, that if creation is not brought about through some form of intelligence, it must be luck. If there is another, please tell me. In that light, I don't understand the end of your comment.

Well, the problem is that your inference is a non sequitur and heavily begs the question, I think. Let's see.

Suppose that the Universe is the product of some intelligence, is this intelligence the product of luck? Or of another intelligence?

What do you think?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Robert.Evans]

Typical empty response.

Get this, Robert.

"Fact" as you called it, required something that can be verify it is a "fact" - it's called EVIDENCE.

What you have is faith, not fact. They are just your faith and your personal belief, something akin to having personal opinion.

Everyone can have personal opinion, and apparently everyone can any belief they want to. Having faith or belief, is not a fact.

Without evidences (or fact), faith is nothing more than wishful thinking, and wishful thinking also fall under superstition.

No. Grace is inward and God given. Belief is not something you decide yourself. It is fact. Gravity is fact whether you or I know of it or not. I don't have to prove it to you - nor can I - to make it fact. You may call it opinion if you want, but that is just YOUR opinion. Mine is fact. God given. Annoying for you no doubt, but I won't lie just to keep your worldly views in order.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Well, the problem is that your inference is a non sequitur and heavily begs the question, I think. Let's see.

Suppose that the Universe is the product of some intelligence, is this intelligence the product of luck? Or of another intelligence?

What do you think?

Ciao

- viole

Good question.
Sorry it took so long to respond. It got lost in others.

God evolves from a singularity - simplicity made complex. That is how I can know, just through theology, that evolution has to be true, even if sceince turns round and says it is not.

Let me ask you this. If you don't believe in God, what does your 'natural luck and blind chance' come from? How does it exist? Where is it? What is it made of? How can it create everything through blind chance? Etc etc

 

[gnostic]

No. Grace is inward and God given. Belief is not something you decide yourself. It is fact. Gravity is fact whether you or I know of it or not. I don't have to prove it to you - nor can I - to make it fact. You may call it opinion if you want, but that is just YOUR opinion. Mine is fact. God given. Annoying for you no doubt, but I won't lie just to keep your worldly views in order.

You can't make the comparison between gravity and the existence of a god, the same.

Fact mean something that you, I or anyone could verify or test.

You can actually verify for yourself about gravity, if you bother to learn how to. I am not scientist, but I do have a background as civil engineer, and lot of the work involve understanding gravity and the effects that they would have in my line of work, and that also include represented any problem in mathematical equations and in drawings, whether they be larger buildings, roads, bridges, laying out water mains (aqueduct systems) or the sewers or storm water drains, or the construction of dams or irrigation. All of it required proper grounding in physics, which would include knowledge of gravity.

God, on the other hand, is all based on some ancient books that clearly rely on faith, not evidences. And these faith are very similar to superstition. Back then, people used to think mental or emotional disorders to be the work of God punishing people, or spirits tormenting the victims (like Saul's madness for instance, making him intensively obsessive and jealous of David) or demons that need to be exorcise (like the miracles of Jesus). The people who each book in the bible have no understanding of medicine, of physical, emotional or mental health, no understanding of psychology.

Then there other miracles of Jesus, the walking on water and stopping storm with words or gesture.

All that to me, the miracles are nothing more than superstition in supernatural belief. It is supernatural, because they (miracles) defy the science of understanding nature.

I don't remember the verses in which gospel(s) exactly, but I do recall, that he has been healing people, and performing miracles, left and right, but when it came to his home town of Nazareth, who ask for miracles, he refused on the ground, that he is not there to perform miracles. How bloody convenient? The gospel author(s) then went on to justify that Jesus' refusal to perform miracles being the reason why the town he was born to reject him, implying the fulfillment of some obscure prophecy.

Yes, your faith and your personal belief about your god are nothing more than opinions, not facts, because clearly have already indicate it is all "inward".

Like I said, FACT, required verifiable or testable evidences. If you can't verify or test it, then it is not factual.

Annoying for you no doubt, but I won't lie just to keep your worldly views in order.

Said the one who think his "God-given" belief/opinion to be fact, when you can't provide evidences for anyone to test or verify what you believe to be true.

My worldly view may seem materialistic to you, but at least I didn't bury my head in the sand. If that make you happy, then who am I to deny you your blissful ignorance.

 

[gnostic]

Understood. Thank you for clarifying

It's not a problem.

 

[gnostic]

Sorry it took so long to respond. It got lost in others.

God evolves from a singularity - simplicity made complex. That is how I can know, just through theology, that evolution has to be true, even if sceince turns round and says it is not.

Let me ask you this. If you don't believe in God, what does your 'natural luck and blind chance' come from? How does it exist? Where is it? What is it made of? How can it create everything through blind chance? Etc etc

Again, you don''t know what you are talking about.

Science rely on probabilities, not on luck.

Luck is superstition. Good luck and bad luck, is just someone who ignorantly don't understand probabilities.

And where in the 7-bloody hell you think science don't believe in "evolution"?

It has been Christian creationist literalists who have been rejecting Darwin's Natural Selection, and biological evolution in general, even today. Not all Christians reject evolution, not even in Darwin's time. But sadly many creationists continued to reject science, reject biology, reject evolution.

Christian theology write of nothing about biology, let alone evolution, because the bible show no understanding of even basic science. If you bother to read JOB 38 to 41, you can see that God don't understand science at all, because he sounds as primitive and superstitious as Iron Age author of JOB.

And you talk of singularity as if you know what the singularity is. What is this singularity? And how do you know that God come from or evolve from the singularity?

Don't be shy, provide sources from your theology or from science that they understood or know what a singularity is. Please do tell...

 

[raph]

So you say...

Except that da Vinci was a real person, an artist, who actually painted that portrait. There is no evidence that link this universe and your invisible creator together, that just your belief.

But still, we have to apply the attributes of the Abrahamic God when discussing about Him. I showed why the Abrahamic God would have time for us and care about us. God's existence doesnt matter in this thread for me.

 

[Robert.Evans]

You can't make the comparison between gravity and the existence of a god, the same.

Fact mean something that you, I or anyone could verify or test.

You can actually verify for yourself about gravity, if you bother to learn how to. I am not scientist, but I do have a background as civil engineer, and lot of the work involve understanding gravity and the effects that they would have in my line of work, and that also include represented any problem in mathematical equations and in drawings, whether they be larger buildings, roads, bridges, laying out water mains (aqueduct systems) or the sewers or storm water drains, or the construction of dams or irrigation. All of it required proper grounding in physics, which would include knowledge of gravity.

God, on the other hand, is all based on some ancient books that clearly rely on faith, not evidences. And these faith are very similar to superstition. Back then, people used to think mental or emotional disorders to be the work of God punishing people, or spirits tormenting the victims (like Saul's madness for instance, making him intensively obsessive and jealous of David) or demons that need to be exorcise (like the miracles of Jesus). The people who each book in the bible have no understanding of medicine, of physical, emotional or mental health, no understanding of psychology.

Then there other miracles of Jesus, the walking on water and stopping storm with words or gesture.

All that to me, the miracles are nothing more than superstition in supernatural belief. It is supernatural, because they (miracles) defy the science of understanding nature.

I don't remember the verses in which gospel(s) exactly, but I do recall, that he has been healing people, and performing miracles, left and right, but when it came to his home town of Nazareth, who ask for miracles, he refused on the ground, that he is not there to perform miracles. How bloody convenient? The gospel author(s) then went on to justify that Jesus' refusal to perform miracles being the reason why the town he was born to reject him, implying the fulfillment of some obscure prophecy.

Yes, your faith and your personal belief about your god are nothing more than opinions, not facts, because clearly have already indicate it is all "inward".

Like I said, FACT, required verifiable or testable evidences. If you can't verify or test it, then it is not factual.


Said the one who think his "God-given" belief/opinion to be fact, when you can't provide evidences for anyone to test or verify what you believe to be true.

My worldly view may seem materialistic to you, but at least I didn't bury my head in the sand. If that make you happy, then who am I to deny you your blissful ignorance.

I don't bury my head in the sand either. I have never studied a subject so much in my life before.
People often don't understand, and I don't think you did either.
But I disagree with your idea of fact. You seem to be saying that there is no such "fact" as gravity until as such time as someone works it out and then proves it. Really? I think you will find it was always fact. It depends on how you define the word perhaps.