Producing life from non living matter

[FearGod]

Nah, that's not what I said. Re-read the post.

You don't believe in any religion and you think that people made up religions in their efforts
to relate themselves to God.

 

[omega2xx]

DNA is made up of a sugar called deoxyribose, a phosisphate molecule and four different nitrogenous bases - adenine, thymine, cytosine and guanine. All very basic, low atomic weight and therefore formed early in the universe's history chemicals. No dna is not complicated but there is a lot of it, you are confusing complexity with quantity.

My opinion is that it is both scientifically and statistically provable.

I am not confusing complicated with anything. Most real scientists say DNA is very complex. If you don't think it is, tell them, not me.

Until it is proven, you are right, it is just your opinion. If can be proven statistically, what sample size is needed to make the results reliable?

 

[omega2xx]

The quantum is there all the time, every atom of your body is made of quantum particles. Vacuum bubbles form all the time in the quantum domain.

What you say may be true, but no quantum process has produced something out of nothing.

 

[Kirran]

Are you really suggesting DNA is not complex? Every living cell is extremely complex. Don't take my work of it, I am just parroting what real scientist have said for years.

I am a scientist. Tell me, what about DNA is complex?

You don't believe in any religion and you think that people made up religions in their efforts
to relate themselves to God.

I believe a religion is as real in relation to God as a language is real in relation to the concepts it describes.

 

[FearGod]

I believe a religion is as real in relation to God as a language is real in relation to the concepts it describes.

Such believe has no meaning, I don't see a need to believe in anything if believing that religion is the product of humans relating themselves to God.

 

[ChristineM]

I am not confusing complicated with anything. Most real scientists say DNA is very complex. If you don't think it is, tell them, not me.

Until it is proven, you are right, it is just your opinion. If can be proven statistically, what sample size is needed to make the results reliable?

No they don't, creation "scientists" say its complicated, real scientists say what its made of.

OK E=MC2 proves the god of revelation 19:6 kjv cannot exist in this universe. Do the maths, To date no one has proven Einstein's mass energy equivalence formula wrong.

Proof by exhaustion shows that statistically no gods exist. In the 10,000 years or so of god worship, literally billions of attempts to prove gods existence gave failed. It would only take one success to destroy thst proof.

My opinion is based on sound, provable examples.

 

[Kirran]

Such believe has no meaning, I don't see a need to believe in anything if believing that religion is the product of humans relating themselves to God.

Yeah, belief is overrated. Think of it like this: I don't believe in my cat. It would be silly to say I believe in my cat, cos I have met my cat and spent time with my cat. I know the cat and have experienced it. So a belief in the cat wouldn't make sense. A belief is when you take something on faith or on trust without really knowing. That has its own value, certainly, but ultimately is temporary, a tool.

 

[ChristineM]

What you say may be true, but no quantum process has produced something out of nothing.

Again, happens all the time, particle's pop into existence for a short period then annihilate.

 

[sayak83]

They started with something that already had life in it.

No they did not. All the parts of the original cell (the giant vesicle) was ordered from organic chemistry stores and assembled. From the paper (since you do not read links)

The aim of our investigation was to explore the universal concept of life by embodying a model protocell that demonstrates how collaborative dynamics emerged from nonliving matter under certain circumstances. To achieve this goal, we selected well-defined suitable lipids and macromolecules, including newly designed ones, and constructed a giant vesicle (GV)-based model protocell that links self-replication of information molecules (RNA/DNA) with the self-reproduction of a compartment (GV)7. The membrane of our GV-based model protocell comprises two kinds of phospholipids 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine (POPC) and 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phospho-rac-(1-glycerol) (POPG), and a synthesized cationic membrane lipid (V) containing an amphiphilic catalyst (C) that catalyses the hydrolysis of the membrane lipid precursor (V*) to yield V and an electrolyte....

Here's the recipe from the same paper

Preparation of 1st generation GVs
Stock chloroform solutions of the individual lipids (POPC, POPG, membrane molecule V, amphiphilic catalyst C and cholesterol; the concentration of each stock solutions is 10 mM) were mixed in a test tube and adjusted to a final molar ratio composition of POPCOPG:V:C:cholesterol=60:15:10:10:5 (total volume is 100 μl). The mixture was dried to a thin lipid film under a stream of nitrogen. Then the lipid film was stored under reduced pressure for more than 6 h to remove traces of solvent. The dry lipid film was hydrated by the addition of deionized water (1 ml), and then vortexed for 5 s, resulting in the formation of a GV dispersion (total lipid concentration=2 mM). The GV dispersion was incubated for 3 h at 23 °C. It was then rapidly frozen in liquid nitrogen and stored under reduced pressure over a period of 12 h. The resulting lipid powder was rehydrated in 1 ml of a PCR solution (deionized water (610 μl), PCR buffer (10 × KOD-Plus-buffer, 100 μl), MgSO4aq. (25 mM, 40 μl), PEG20,000aq. (12.5 wt%, 80 μl), TE buffer solutions of dNTP mixtures (2 mM per nucleotide, 80 μl), primer 1 (10 μM, 20 mer, 30 μl), primer 2 (10 μM, 20 mer, 30 μl), 1,164-bp DNA template (10 nM, 10 μl), DNA polymerase (KOD-Plus-, 1.0 units per microlitre, Mg2+ free, 0.6 μM, 20 μl)). To stabilize the GV, the dispersion was incubated for at least 1 h at 23 °C. After this incubation, a buffer solution containing DNase I (5,000 units per microlitre, 20 μl) was added to the dispersion to digest the DNA template and primers from the exterior of the GV. The outer buffer solution contained deionized water (780 μl), PCR buffer (10 × KOD-Plus-buffer, 200 μl), CaCl2aq. (100 mM, 10 μl), PEG20,000aq. (12.5 wt%, 80 μl), DNase I (5,000 U μl−1, 20 μl) and a fluorescent probe for the amplified dsDNA (1 × SYBR Green I, 20 μl). The solution was incubated for 30 min at 23 °C.


Just in case you are wondering, the DNA is also made artificially.

Artificial gene synthesis - Wikipedia

Artificial gene synthesis, sometimes known as DNA printing[1] is a method in synthetic biology that is used to create artificial genes in the laboratory. Currently based on solid-phase DNA synthesis, it differs from molecular cloning and polymerase chain reaction (PCR) in that the user does not have to begin with preexisting DNA sequences. Therefore, it is possible to make a completely synthetic double-stranded DNA molecule with no apparent limits on either nucleotide sequence or size. The method has been used to generate functional bacterial or yeast chromosomes containing approximately one million base pairs. Recent research also suggests the possibility of creating novel nucleobase pairs in addition to the two base pairs in nature, which could greatly expand the genetic code.[2][3][4][5]


Let me know which of the things above were living before they were cooked to make the living protocell that grew and replicated.

 

[FearGod]

Yeah, belief is overrated. Think of it like this: I don't believe in my cat. It would be silly to say I believe in my cat, cos I have met my cat and spent time with my cat. I know the cat and have experienced it. So a belief in the cat wouldn't make sense. A belief is when you take something on faith or on trust without really knowing. That has its own value, certainly, but ultimately is temporary, a tool.

Depending in what you believe in, if I believe that donkeys may fly then such belief doesn't make sense,
to me for example believing that Jesus is God and son of God doesn't make sense,go figure.

 

[Kirran]

Depending in what you believe in, if I believe that donkeys may fly then such belief doesn't make sense,
to me for example believing that Jesus is God and son of God doesn't make sense,go figure.

I don't think you got the point of what I said. Those are just ideas you're talking about.

 

[Valjean]

Are you really suggesting DNA is not complex? Every living cell is extremely complex. Don't take my work of it, I am just parroting what real scientist have said for years.

As Christine pointed out, DNA/RNA are not particularly complex molecules, just very long ones. As I said elsewhere, a long chain is no more 'complex' than a short one. It doesn't take a complicated coding system to create complicated structures. You can write the complete works of Shakespeare with just 26 letters, or just two if using Morse code.
Now how the complexity of organisms themselves came about is a different matter. Don't be cowed by the complexity and retreat into personal incredulity. Biology describes the processes and simple steps, if you take the time to look into it.

 

[FearGod]

I don't think you got the point of what I said. Those are just ideas you're talking about.

That if you have a point, sorry

 

[FearGod]

@sayak83 Do you think creating a fly is simple or complex, and do you think making
a fly needs some extensive studies and experiments in order to be achieved or it
can be created by some goofy guys?

 

[omega2xx]

I am a scientist. Tell me, what about DNA is complex?

I am not a scientist, but I can read what other scientist say.

Sequence Complexity

I believe a religion is as real in relation to God as a language is real in relation to the concepts it describes.

So you accept what you believe the same way Christians accept what the believe---By faith alone.

 

[Kirran]

I am not a scientist, but I can read what other scientist say.

Sequence Complexity

http://bioinfosu.okstate.edu/MG/MGW1/MG112283.html

In what way does that link back up what you're saying? It just talks about the basics of how we measure sequence complexity. Doesn't in any way imply that DNA is structurally complex.

So you accept what you believe the same way Christians accept what the believe---By faith alone.

That doesn't seem to relate to what it was you quoted me saying.

 

[omega2xx]

My opinion is based on sound, provable examples.[/QUOTE]

Again, happens all the time, particle's pop into existence for a short period then annihilate.

Your problem is you need a perfect vacuum and you ain't got one.

 

[omega2xx]

No they did not. All the parts of the original cell (the giant vesicle) was ordered from organic chemistry stores and assembled. From the paper (since you do not read links)

The aim of our investigation was to explore the universal concept of life by embodying a model protocell that demonstrates how collaborative dynamics emerged from nonliving matter under certain circumstances. To achieve this goal, we selected well-defined suitable lipids and macromolecules, including newly designed ones, and constructed a giant vesicle (GV)-based model protocell that links self-replication of information molecules (RNA/DNA) with the self-reproduction of a compartment (GV)7. The membrane of our GV-based model protocell comprises two kinds of phospholipids 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phosphocholine (POPC) and 1-palmitoyl-2-oleoyl-sn-glycero-3-phospho-rac-(1-glycerol) (POPG), and a synthesized cationic membrane lipid (V) containing an amphiphilic catalyst (C) that catalyses the hydrolysis of the membrane lipid precursor (V*) to yield V and an electrolyte....

Here's the recipe from the same paper

Preparation of 1st generation GVs
Stock chloroform solutions of the individual lipids (POPC, POPG, membrane molecule V, amphiphilic catalyst C and cholesterol; the concentration of each stock solutions is 10 mM) were mixed in a test tube and adjusted to a final molar ratio composition of POPCOPG:V:C:cholesterol=60:15:10:10:5 (total volume is 100 μl). The mixture was dried to a thin lipid film under a stream of nitrogen. Then the lipid film was stored under reduced pressure for more than 6 h to remove traces of solvent. The dry lipid film was hydrated by the addition of deionized water (1 ml), and then vortexed for 5 s, resulting in the formation of a GV dispersion (total lipid concentration=2 mM). The GV dispersion was incubated for 3 h at 23 °C. It was then rapidly frozen in liquid nitrogen and stored under reduced pressure over a period of 12 h. The resulting lipid powder was rehydrated in 1 ml of a PCR solution (deionized water (610 μl), PCR buffer (10 × KOD-Plus-buffer, 100 μl), MgSO4aq. (25 mM, 40 μl), PEG20,000aq. (12.5 wt%, 80 μl), TE buffer solutions of dNTP mixtures (2 mM per nucleotide, 80 μl), primer 1 (10 μM, 20 mer, 30 μl), primer 2 (10 μM, 20 mer, 30 μl), 1,164-bp DNA template (10 nM, 10 μl), DNA polymerase (KOD-Plus-, 1.0 units per microlitre, Mg2+ free, 0.6 μM, 20 μl)). To stabilize the GV, the dispersion was incubated for at least 1 h at 23 °C. After this incubation, a buffer solution containing DNase I (5,000 units per microlitre, 20 μl) was added to the dispersion to digest the DNA template and primers from the exterior of the GV. The outer buffer solution contained deionized water (780 μl), PCR buffer (10 × KOD-Plus-buffer, 200 μl), CaCl2aq. (100 mM, 10 μl), PEG20,000aq. (12.5 wt%, 80 μl), DNase I (5,000 U μl−1, 20 μl) and a fluorescent probe for the amplified dsDNA (1 × SYBR Green I, 20 μl). The solution was incubated for 30 min at 23 °C.


Just in case you are wondering, the DNA is also made artificially.

Artificial gene synthesis - Wikipedia

Artificial gene synthesis, sometimes known as DNA printing[1] is a method in synthetic biology that is used to create artificial genes in the laboratory. Currently based on solid-phase DNA synthesis, it differs from molecular cloning and polymerase chain reaction (PCR) in that the user does not have to begin with preexisting DNA sequences. Therefore, it is possible to make a completely synthetic double-stranded DNA molecule with no apparent limits on either nucleotide sequence or size. The method has been used to generate functional bacterial or yeast chromosomes containing approximately one million base pairs. Recent research also suggests the possibility of creating novel nucleobase pairs in addition to the two base pairs in nature, which could greatly expand the genetic code.[2][3][4][5]


Let me know which of the things above were living before they were cooked to make the living protocell that grew and replicated.

Tell me what "orgainic" means.

 

[omega2xx]

As Christine pointed out, DNA/RNA are not particularly complex molecules, just very long ones. As I said elsewhere, a long chain is no more 'complex' than a short one. It doesn't take a complicated coding system to create complicated structures. You can write the complete works of Shakespeare with just 26 letters, or just two if using Morse code.

Other scientist, probably better qualified than you or Christine, say DNA is complex. Why should I b elie you instead of them?

Now how the complexity of organisms themselves came about is a different matter. Don't be cowed by the complexity and retreat into personal incredulity. Biology describes the processes and simple steps, if you take the time to look into it.

Nothing in Biology describes how an A became a B.

 

[FearGod]

As Christine pointed out, DNA/RNA are not particularly complex molecules, just very long ones. As I said elsewhere, a long chain is no more 'complex' than a short one. It doesn't take a complicated coding system to create complicated structures. You can write the complete works of Shakespeare with just 26 letters, or just two if using Morse code.
Now how the complexity of organisms themselves came about is a different matter. Don't be cowed by the complexity and retreat into personal incredulity. Biology describes the processes and simple steps, if you take the time to look into it.

The DNA is similar to computer programming, the sequences and instructions
is made to perform a designed job.

26 letters used for the work of Shakeseare could have no meaning if were written by a child, sdfjr ffddsdk dsddfe rffdfd dcddefjdf dcscdf cncnxx ......, Got it