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Proof of evolution -at last-

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It states that the historical documentation and text of the gospels is known within a few 'decares' of the life of Jesus.
First and above all the historical references are third person accounts of those that believe in Jesus Christ. Josephus was not born until 37 AD. No known early text nor scraps of the Gospels are known to exist before ~200 AD. There are a number of different copies of parts of the gospels that show editing and redating changes.
It states that the historical documentation and text of the gospels is known within a few 'decares' of the life of Jesus.
First and above all the historical references are third person accounts of those that believe in Jesus Christ. Josephus was not born until 37 AD. No known early text nor scraps of the Gospels are known to exist before ~200 AD. There are a number of different copies of parts of the gospels that show editing and redating changes.
That no scraps you say exist before c.200 ce really suggests that more complete writings did exist before that. Otherwise scraps would not be there. And regardless of editing and redacting, again this well shows that unlike genetic gaps in supposed evolved animals, Jesus certainly did exist and was well documented by those who knew and saw him or had explained him to others. Who were waiting or delighted or not so happy to hear about the Messiah.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is an assumption for those that do not believe in deities or the supernatural. A reasonable one based on the lack of objective evidence for believed views and the consistency of other phenomena to have naturalistic support. But it is not a fact. Yet. The statement could also be based on personal constraints to the understanding of the status of abiogenesis as an hypothesis. It is a fair leap from a statement like that to establishing it as a belief for even some, let alone many. And no basis to claim it is a position in science.
Actually it is said that many agnostic or atheist scientists were not happy to learn that the universe had a beginning.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
A person's opinion or expression about hypothesized or actual phenomena is not a scientific statement. Just as someone posting their claims of biblical interpretation being the final word does not make it so.

I do not know of any reason any of the actual hypotheses that have been published regarding abiogenesis cannot be tested other than we do not currently have enough evidence to conduct the tests. They remain hypotheses. But what an individual chooses to claim based on them is not a statement of science.
Ok let me understand something. Are you saying that abiogenesis can be duplicated in human experiment?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
please share with us the “working hypothesis” of abiogenesis. (The formation of amino acids , is not a working hypothesis.)

A working hypothesis is any where -
  1. any multiple evidence can be discovered - positive evidence or negative evidence - OR,
  2. be able to perform different experiments - successful experiments or failed experiments.

Both points 1 & 2, demonstrate that the hypothesis can be tested (eg actual experiments being performed, or evidence like the Murchison Meteorite, etc), and the hypothesis is still testable and that the hypothesis is falsifiable.

Every evidence - positive & negative, and every experiments - failed ones & successful ones - provide objective information or raw data (in the case of Abiogenesis examples) about physical phenomena of inorganic matters in pre-biotic environment can convert into organic matters (or more precisely any of the biological macromolecules) through chemical reactions. Such information or data is vital testing of any hypothesis.

That different evidence are still being gathered or different experiments are still being performed, in the present as it did back with the earliest experiment by Stanley Miller & Harold Urey in 1952, are examples of a working hypothesis, Hockeycowboy.

Do you even understand the nature of falsifiable or the nature of evidence?

Even one failed experiments demonstrated the hypothesis is falsifiable. Because it (“it” as in data yielded in experiments) a experiment can be carried out in the first place, and it would tell us that the premises in the hypothesis are either incorrect or inaccurate, and that’s a good thing, because this test (this single experiment) would rule out the premises.

But “one” experiment is a failure, doesn’t mean you cannot perform different experiments.

Let’s say for hypothetical scenario, you have perform 20 completely different experiments, some have failed and some yield successes in experiments, then in this case you would know that certain chemicals don’t work, but others do.

That’s the sign that the hypothesis is falsifiable, because you can perform tests in the first place.

A concept is only unfalsifiable if there are “no experiments” whatsoever, or no evidence exist.

Intelligent Design for example, always advocate the “Designer” is the “cause”, but where are physical evidence of this Designer? Where are experiments that demonstrate the physical Designer exist?

What stupid ID creationists from Discovery Institute (eg Phillip Johnson, Stephen Meyer, Michael Behe, are senior members) and ID creationist authors (eg Dean Kenyon, Percival Davis), failed to comprehend that CAUSE also required EVIDENCE for its existence to be true. Without a single evidence of the cause (Designer), then the whole concept (Intelligent Design) collapses, which means Intelligent Design is unfalsifiable and untestable.

Behe even admitted that Intelligent Design have no “original experiments” and no data.

Unfalsifiable concepts, like Intelligent Design, cannot not provide or demonstrate that this Designer is real.

Abiogenesis is not proposing any supernatural beings, no magic and no miracles. All Abiogenesis is proposing is that the right inorganic chemicals can produce biological compounds, through chemical reactions.

You are forgetting that Miller and Urey have identified 11 amino acids in 1952, while using electricity as catalyst to start chemical reaction.

The whole experiment was then stored in some vials. Without heat and electricity, chemical reaction were still occurring in those vials, when another 10 different amino acids, hence a total of 21 amino acids.

You’ve dismissed the implications of the experimental results of experiments producing amino acids and other organic compounds (eg adenines in Oró’s 1961 experiment, using hydrogen cyanide, ammonia and water; adenine is one of 5 compounds in a nucleobase, which are components in nucleic acids).

There are over 500 different types of amino acids, but only 23 different amino acids can naturally produce (various types of) proteins. So amino acids are the building blocks of proteins.

Amino acids are just one piece of the biological compounds scientists are trying to figure out, in a much larger puzzle. You are forgetting that some other experiments are trying to unlock the formation of the components in nucleic acids and in carbohydrates.

Abiogenesis researches, even with hypothesis status, have done more solid works than the biblical creationism (eg YEC, OEC) or the Intelligent Design creationism.
 
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Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok let me understand something. Are you saying that abiogenesis can be duplicated in human experiment?
I am dubious about explaining anything to you, since it seems to fall on blind eyes. How you got anything remotely close to forming the basis of a question like that is beyond me.

No. I am not saying that.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Ok let me understand something. Are you saying that abiogenesis can be duplicated in human experiment?
No, YoursTrue.

You are still not understanding the concept of Abiogenesis.

So far, Abiogenesis have only trying to stimulate early Earth environment, in its pre-oxygen atmosphere, meaning from 4 billion years ago to 2.7 billion years ago, there were no free oxygen, so the earlier organisms have to be anaerobic organisms, species of bacteria or of archaea that would have started to flourish 3.8 billion years ago.

These primitive species of early bacteria, would have prokaryotic cells. Every cells have different organic matters that have different physical structures and physiological functions, that worked together to make cells “living”.

What every cells have in common - both prokaryotic cells (in prokaryotes, eg bacteria & archaea) and eukaryotic cells (eukaryotes, eg animals, plants, fungi) - 3 biological macromolecules are essential to all cells (therefore all life), which I have already mentioned in my other posts: proteins, nucleic acids, & carbohydrates.

Abiogenesis is about testing the origins to all biological compounds or molecules.

Nucleic acids (RNA, DNA) are made out of multiple different organic compounds, such as nucleobase is a nitrogen-based biological compounds (eg adenine, guanine & cytosine are found in common in both RNA & DNA, but uracil only exist in RNA, and thymine in DNA). And carbohydrates (sugars) also exist in nucleic acids, eg ribose sugar in RNA, and deoxyribose sugar is a component in DNA.

Finding the chemical origins of each of these biological compounds (eg adenine, thymine, uracil, ribose, deoxyribose, etc) are just as important as the origin of proteins, which are made of biological compounds, amino acids.

So Abiogenesis is about the origins of each of these biological compounds, compounds that make living cells, so essentially Abiogenesis is about the origin of the earliest cells.

Do you now understand why biologists and biochemists are investigating these compounds?

How many more times, before you understand, Abiogenesis is understanding the natural processes of every biological matters, whether in cellular level, or at smaller biological compounds that make up a cell?

If you are clueless as to what biochemist are doing researching origins of organic matters, why do you even argue against something that you have no comprehension of?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
That no scraps you say exist before c.200 ce really suggests that more complete writings did exist before that. Otherwise scraps would not be there. And regardless of editing and redacting, again this well shows that unlike genetic gaps in supposed evolved animals, Jesus certainly did exist and was well documented by those who knew and saw him or had explained him to others. Who were waiting or delighted or not so happy to hear about the Messiah.
The gaps in genomes exist. It is not made up. They are seen. You know. Gaps!
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Actually it is said that many agnostic or atheist scientists were not happy to learn that the universe had a beginning.

LOL

Are you kidding me?

Abiogenesis isn’t science, yet, but there already evidence to support the various models for Abiogenesis.

Scientists researching on Abiogenesis, will investigate this hypothetical field, regards if the biologists and biologists are theists, atheists or agnostics.

@Dan From Smithville , @metis and @shunyadragon are theists, their minds are not closed as to the evidence and experiments that have verified Abiogenesis so far. They relied on scientific evidence, not their personal religious beliefs.

Only creationists would blindly turn this into theism vs atheism match. Abiogenesis have nothing to do with atheism or with theism.

It is about TESTING a hypothesis with physical evidence and experiments of the natural processes of biochemistry of organic matters.

All matters are made of molecules and compounds, and every molecules and compounds are made of atoms. These molecules and compounds exist, whether chemical reactions are organic or inorganic in nature, or both.

It is rather apparent and pathetic at the same time, that you would try to turn this into atheism vs theism pissing match.

If metis, shunyadragon & metis have no problems with Abiogenesis, then why are you focusing on “agnostic or atheist”?

You are desperate, and you are trying to lead us in a different direction...pathetic.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The gaps in genomes exist. It is not made up. They are seen. You know. Gaps!
Gaps, or gasp, which is it? I KNOW THEY EXIST -- and yet -- where are the in-betweens from the "Unknown Common Ancestor" "branching out somehow by -- existential distribution to -- gorillas, mix with other genes (as yet UNKNOWN) to bonobos, etc. and then of course maybe humans. Not there. I'm thinking you really do not understand what I'm saying or perhaps you are deliberately not understanding. Smile. Is that possible?? :)
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Gaps, or gasp, which is it? I KNOW THEY EXIST -- and yet -- where are the in-betweens from the "Unknown Common Ancestor" "branching out somehow by -- existential distribution to -- gorillas, mix with other genes (as yet UNKNOWN) to bonobos, etc. and then of course maybe humans. Not there. I'm thinking you really do not understand what I'm saying or perhaps you are deliberately not understanding. Smile. Is that possible?? :)
Where is your Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Grandmother? There actually should be many of them. Do you have any proof that they exist? If you don't does that mean you don't either?

You are correct. I often do not understand what you are saying. Frequently, it makes little or no sense to me. To others too, I am afraid. However, I do understand what you are trying to do here. Because the last common ancestor between Pan and Homo remains unknown, you are trying to insinuate that means it does not exist. That is poor reasoning and does nothing to support your denial of science.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I imagine you can find out easily enough with a simple search. But are you saying you don't think so? Or that basically you don't know?
I shouldn't have to search for evidence supporting your claims. That is your job. I imagine you just said it without any basis in fact expecting that it would not be challenged or questioned and be soaked up by others that accept such things without question.

Again, who says it and where is it being said? If you cannot answer, I will have to assume it is without merit and can be ignored.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am dubious about explaining anything to you, since it seems to fall on blind eyes. How you got anything remotely close to forming the basis of a question like that is beyond me.

No. I am not saying that.
I am glad you finally realize you cannot, due to circumstances regarding true (not conjectural or false) science, explain your position to me. Thank you. *Because it's -- inexplicable in a truthful proveable way. Thank you!! As the old song goes -- if you remember it -- "At Last!!!!" (nice song, by the way.)
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I am glad you finally realize you cannot, due to circumstances regarding true (not conjectural or false) science, explain your position to me. Thank you. *Because it's -- inexplicable in a truthful proveable way. Thank you!! As the old song goes -- if you remember it -- "At Last!!!!" (nice song, by the way.)
This is a fine example of a post of yours that I cannot make head or tail of. What are you saying? What do you want? Can you explain it in some more comprehensible way?

The fact that it doesn't matter how well things are explained to you, you will just deny them is not a fault of mine or of anyone else that has explained things to you.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Where is your Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Grandmother? There actually should be many of them. Do you have any proof that they exist? If you don't does that mean you don't either?

You are correct. I often do not understand what you are saying. Frequently, it makes little or no sense to me. To others too, I am afraid. However, I do understand what you are trying to do here. Because the last common ancestor between Pan and Homo remains unknown, you are trying to insinuate that means it does not exist. That is poor reasoning and does nothing to support your denial of science.
I can only imagine you think your great +++ grandparents go waaaaaayyyyyy back to -- um -- gorillas? (oh no, can't say -- because it's an unknown 'common' ancestor so some scientists conjecture) or maybe bonobos? noooooo again -- unknoiwn somewhere inbetween. Come on -- lol take a guess -- maybe under a treestump somewhere -- sad, but shaking my head here while briefly laughing at the same time. Sad.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
This is a fine example of a post of yours that I cannot make head or tail of. What are you saying? What do you want? Can you explain it in some more comprehensible way?

The fact that it doesn't matter how well things are explained to you, you will just deny them is not a fault of mine or of anyone else that has explained things to you.
I cannot explain it in a way more comprehensible to you. But thanks for trying. Even Einstein had problems understanding some things. :)
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only imagine you think your great +++ grandparents go waaaaaayyyyyy back to -- um -- gorillas? (oh no, can't say -- because it's an unknown 'common' ancestor so some scientists conjecture) or maybe bonobos? noooooo again -- unknoiwn somewhere inbetween. Come on -- lol take a guess -- maybe under a treestump somewhere -- sad, but shaking my head here while briefly laughing at the same time. Sad.
This is the sort of nonsense response that leads many to the conclusion that you really do not have the knowledge or understanding to fault science.

I would like you to answer my questions. I am well aware that you have a tendency to avoid them by offering posts much like this one that I am responding to. I find that disrespectful.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I cannot explain it in a way more comprehensible to you. But thanks for trying. Even Einstein had problems understanding some things. :)
I cannot say from a point of evidence and I have no proof that he did or didn't and neither do you. But what I have read of his work, is understandable.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
I can only imagine you think your great +++ grandparents go waaaaaayyyyyy back to -- um -- gorillas? (oh no, can't say -- because it's an unknown 'common' ancestor so some scientists conjecture) or maybe bonobos? noooooo again -- unknoiwn somewhere inbetween. Come on -- lol take a guess -- maybe under a treestump somewhere -- sad, but shaking my head here while briefly laughing at the same time. Sad.
It does not bother me like it seems to bother you. Our very bodies do some gross things too. So what. Just because they make some people uncomfortable to discuss those facts doesn't make them false. It does not rule out God either.
 
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