Proof of God (Alphabet Found on Butterfly Wings) Photographed by Smithsonian Institute

[McBell]

Somebody (intelligence) had to organize matter in order to form what we see today.

Something (butterfly) cannot be formed by nothing (no intelligence).

Something (butterfly) never develops from nothing (unorganized matter). There has to be an intelligent designer to organize and program matter to develop or form into an organized living or non-living thing.

You forgot to answer the questions.
Care to try again:

So intelligence and matter are nothing?
Because if they are a something, then they had to come from something else.
That is your argument, remember?​

 

[FFH]

You forgot to answer the questions.
Care to try again:

So intelligence and matter are nothing?
Because if they are a something, then they had to come from something else.
That is your argument, remember?
​

Nothing can be formed by nothing (no intelligence). Nothing comes from nothing (no intelligence). We cannot form ourselves. The smallest living thing cannot form itself (spontaneously live or create itself). Matter is nothing until it is formed, programmed, created, etc. That's why evolution from nothing (unorganized non-living matter) is false. There has to be a creator (intelligent designer) for anything to be something (living matter).

 

[DeitySlayer]

You clearly do not understand evolution.

Evolution holds only that GIVEN A FIRST BASIC LIFE FORM (e.g. a bacterium or similar), life can diversify into many complex forms through the biological 'algorithm' of:

- Replication
- Variation
- Selection

Got it? Nothing to do with the origins of the Universe, matter, the Earth, or even life. Merely the diversification of life.

 

[Zadok]

In fact there has never been even a scientific theory of the universe based on physics that is reliant on random causation. One of the basic laws of physics purported by Newton is that nothing changes unless acted upon by an “outside” force. Or if you will there is a cause to everything. Note to forum residents – Creation is a change.

Historically when a cause could not or was not determined at the time it was said to be caused by G-d. This became known as the classic – G-d of the gaps hypothesis. Currently in science when the cause of something cannot be metered, explained or determined it is said to be random. Both theoretical arguments are heavily flawed and steeped in ignorance. Just because a cause is not know or difficult to isolate does not mean there is not a cause.

So far – as man’s understanding has advanced we have become to understand the causes of things that previously were unknown. An actual random cause had never been found. But then in defense of random thinking – random is not well defined or suited to the mathematical model at the foundation of modern science.

I purport that until a cause is known it does not matter if we think G-d to be the cause or randomness to be the cause. In other words either is the argument of ignorance.

It has been well established that the “flatness” or isotropic nature of the universe has reduces the probability of random creation to impossibility. To counter this paradox; extensions of inflationary theory has been added to the Hot Big Bang theory to create a model of infinite universes (not just ours) resulting from the Big Bang. What is interesting to me is that critics of a G-d created universe hang most of their criticism on the situation that there is no evidence of G-d or as Steven Hawkins says – no necessity for G-d. Then it is argued that randomness (which also cannot be proven or demonstrated as necessary) is the viable solution. And then to pull of the argument to explain the universe an infinite number of possible and actual parallel universes is theorized – even though there is not a single shred of evidence of even a single other parallel universe or dimension. We gain nothing – the 6,000 year old earth and universe was lost as an argument of G-d a very long time ago. The religious theories holding to this notion have been debunked. But a 6,000 year old earth and universe is nothing more than a false interpretation of very ancient manuscripts hardly related to our language, culture and understanding.

Zadok

 

[McBell]

Nothing can be formed by nothing (no intelligence). Nothing comes from nothing (no intelligence). We cannot form ourselves. The smallest living thing cannot form itself (spontaneously live or create itself). Matter is nothing until it is formed, programmed, created, etc. That's why evolution from nothing (unorganized non-living matter) is false. There has to be a creator (intelligent designer) for anything to be something (living matter).

Seems to me that you are merely playing semantics games with your false dichotomy.

 

[Azakel]

Good ol' FFH.

I kow, it's kind of neat to see some of the newbies meet him out here for the first time.....
(note, you will ever win against him....thick ad I mean that in the nicest way one can) ^_^

 

[Father Heathen]

I kow, it's kind of neat to see some of the newbies meet him out here for the first time.....
(note, you will ever win against him....thick ad I mean that in the nicest way one can) ^_^

They'll eventually learn to just smile and nod. :yes:

 

[PolyHedral]

In fact there has never been even a scientific theory of the universe based on physics that is reliant on random causation. One of the basic laws of physics purported by Newton is that nothing changes unless acted upon by an “outside” force. Or if you will there is a cause to everything. Note to forum residents – Creation is a change.

If you are still relying on Newton, your physics are 2 centuries out of date. All of Quantum Mechanics involves randomness, and processes with no definitive cause.

Currently in science when the cause of something cannot be metered, explained or determined it is said to be random. [...] Just because a cause is not know or difficult to isolate does not mean there is not a cause.

Actually, in the case of QM, it does. There is literally no cause behind an atom decaying. Not "it can't be discovered", but as far as QM is concerned, it doesn't exist.

An actual random cause had never been found.

Quantum events are entirely random and predicting them would involve breaking the laws of physics.

 

[branson]

totally random, if it was in some language that was around when adam an eve was tossed from the garden maybe, but if we werent around to notice patterns in nothing the letters would be meaningless, as i think they are. just random like everything else, if every single butterfly on the planet had a letter on its back i would still find it hard to beLIEve that it was the work of god.

 

[Dan4reason]

Somebody (intelligence) had to organize matter in order to form what we see today.

Something (butterfly) cannot be formed by nothing (no intelligence).

Something (butterfly) never develops from nothing (unorganized matter). There has to be an intelligent designer to organize and program matter to develop or form into an organized living or non-living thing.

Through natural selection and mutations a butterfly can evolve from lower life forms. Evolution explains all life on earth after it starts.

 

[hummingbird09]

. There has to be a creator (intelligent designer) for anything to be something (living matter).

Not necessarily.

 

[FFH]

Not necessarily.

Matter, water and energy does not create life, there has to be a divine creator/designer/programmer.

A genetic code must be designed and programmed for life to occur and function.

Genetic codes just do not create themselves, just by bringing matter, water and energy together in one place. A genetic code will not miraculously form from these elements, no matter how much time is added to the mix (equation).

 

[xkatz]

Matter, water and energy does not create life, there has to be a divine creator/designer/programmer.

A genetic code must be designed and programmed for life to occur and function.

Genetic codes just do not create themselves, just by bringing matter, water and energy together in one place. No amount of time will create a genetic code from these elements, no matter how much time is added to the mix (equation).

And how is your theory more sane and logical than any other out there?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Where did god come from?

That question applies to any theory you believe. If you believe in God, where did God come from. If you believe our universe is a smaller part of a larger universe, where did this larger universe come from? If there are other universes, separate from our own, where did any of them come from? Ultimately, no matter what explanations are given, the question is never ending. You can't get something from nothing. If that was possible, we might still believe in spontaneous generation. But you can't. So really, where did anything come from?

But I give credit to Far From Home (FFH). He says what he believes, despite what others may say (including other Mormons). IMO, FFH is more of an individual than most of the people here. Go ahead of ridicule what he says, but few people can voice what they believe in the face of such opposition.

 

[FFH]

And how is your theory more sane and logical than any other out there?

Mine is simple and to the point.

 

[hummingbird09]

Matter, water and energy does not create life, there has to be a divine creator/designer/programmer.

A genetic code must be designed and programmed for life to occur and function.

Genetic codes just do not create themselves, just by bringing matter, water and energy together in one place. A genetic code will not miraculously form from these elements, no matter how much time is added to the mix (equation).

It looks as if some of the great works of many scientists (even of your particular religion) will go to waste on you. That's too bad, here I thought god was knowledge.

 

[hummingbird09]

Mine is simple and to the point.

Adding any deity to your mess complicates matters.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

That question applies to any theory you believe. If you believe in God, where did God come from. If you believe our universe is a smaller part of a larger universe, where did this larger universe come from? If there are other universes, separate from our own, where did any of them come from? Ultimately, no matter what explanations are given, the question is never ending. You can't get something from nothing. If that was possible, we might still believe in spontaneous generation. But you can't. So really, where did anything come from?

The difference is that it is FFH who claims that "everything has to come from something", therefore by extension his argument is self-defeating by then claiming that God (or anything else) is eternal. Nobody on the other side of the debate makes such a claim.

But I give credit to Far From Home (FFH). He says what he believes, despite what others may say (including other Mormons). IMO, FFH is more of an individual than most of the people here. Go ahead of ridicule what he says, but few people can voice what they believe in the face of such opposition.

How does him voicing his opinion make him "more of an individual"? Credulity and dismissing the opinions of others are not virtues.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Matter, water and energy does not create life, there has to be a divine creator/designer/programmer.

Why does there have to be?

A genetic code must be designed and programmed for life to occur and function.

You're confusing regular code and genetic code. Genetic codes do not have to be "programmed" any more than the skin of an orange has to be hand-molded.

Genetic codes just do not create themselves, just by bringing matter, water and energy together in one place. A genetic code will not miraculously form from these elements, no matter how much time is added to the mix (equation).

That's not how it happened. You should actually educate yourself on what abiogenesis states before dismissing it.

 

[nrg]

Nothing comes from nothing, there has to be an intelligent designed/programmed beginning to all things

Actually, on a quantum level, everytime there's nothing it ends up turning into something. And alot of current research points to the universe being flat, wich means it is not impossible for it to have created itself.