What makes some out of everyone think imagination is a bad place for God to speak?
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Proof of Islam?
- Thread starter Wolf Spirit
- Start date
What makes some out of everyone think imagination is a bad place for God to speak?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
God might be speaking to their imagination, but they were not imagining that God was speaking to them, that was my point.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
I too believe that the reality is one. But then, I do not believe in duality of Allah and man, or the multiplicity of God, humans, animals, vegetation and non-living things. That is diluting the principle of non-duality. I believe in 'absolute non-duality'. Abdul Baha too was following the faith of his ancestors, his father and those before him. This is steeped in doctrines, dogma. There is conflict in his own words - Reality is one, it does not admit of multiplicity, is not divisible.
I am strong atheist. I do not believe even in the possibility of existence of any God or Allah. Why should I seed you with false thoughts?
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Bahais think Baha'u'llah is the Messiah, Mahdi, Maitreya?
The Messiah is not divine. It is understood he is a man and so doing signs/miracles is not expected. He is known as "The interpreter of the law".
The Mahdi is not divine. He is guided.
Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best meaning in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding. Quran 13:18
The Maitreya is not divine. He is a Bodhisattva. Someone who holds back his own salvation out of compassion for others.
The messiah does not speak the word of God. He hears it.
The Messiah is also known by the star and the oil.
Remember what I showed you in my earlier post.
Including this:
And ye shall be sorted out into three classes. Quran 56:7
North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Moon - Star - Sun
Corn - Oil - Wine
Spear - Sword - Bow
Straw - Dust - Stubble
Brass - Silver - Gold
I showed verses of the sword and the other weapons attached to the moon, the stars and the sun. They are fixed positions. I will now expand on that a bit more:
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 1 Corinthians 15:41
I showed you verses that Jesus was announcing a man who is coming.
I will now expand on that a bit more:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34
And I will give him the morning star. Revelation 2:28
The Messiah has the sword of God. He is a man of the wilderness.
He can speak to the trees and the trees can speak to him.
Remember the three classes showed including: The corn, the oil, and the wine.
And the four directions: The iron, the brass, the silver, and the gold:
Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen: Joel 2:19
Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold
Palm - Corn - Olive - Grape
The Quran: The palm tree, the corn, the olive tree, and the grape vine:
Listen:
With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought. Quran 16:11
And in the earth are tracts diverse though neighbouring, and gardens of vines and fields sown with corn, and palm trees - growing out of single roots or otherwise: watered with the same water, yet some of them We make more excellent than others to eat. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who understand! Quran 13:4
Plucking out men as if they were roots of palm-trees torn up from the ground. Quran 54:20
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. Mark 8:24
For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Isaiah 55:12
There are many trees. Each tree has its place according to the law.
The brass pomegranate tree, the silver fig tree, the golden apple tree.
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Revelation 6:13
I will plant in the wilderness the cedar, the ****tah tree, and the myrtle, and the oil tree; I will set in the desert the fir tree, and the pine, and the box tree together: Isaiah 41:19
We gat our bread with the peril of our lives because of the sword of the wilderness. Lamentations 5:9
The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Isaiah 40:3
Of them there are some who listen to thee; but We have thrown veils on their hearts, So they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they saw every one of the signs, not they will believe in them; in so much that when they come to thee, they but dispute with thee; the Unbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the ancients." Quran 6:25
That they said, "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Quran 4:157
For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 1 Corinthians 1:17
The path of Moses:
Four directions. Three classes:
For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount. Exodus 19:2
Which I commanded your fathers in the day that I brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, from the iron furnace, saying, Obey my voice, and do them, according to all which I command you: so shall ye be my people, and I will be your God: Jeremiah 11:4
That is why evidence of the exodus has not been found on earth. It can just appear that way when reading the words. They are heavenly stories within strange earthly stories. Its the same with many myths, legends, and fairytales. The language of God is being spoken to children.
As they gather silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, into the midst of the furnace, to blow the fire upon it, to melt it; so will I gather you in mine anger and in my fury, and I will leave you there, and melt you. Ezekiel 22:20
But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord. Joshua 6:19
Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend. Proverbs 27:17
Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad speak the language of the messengers. They are all over the world.
The words form a wheel and speak about turning the wheel.
They speak the wheel of the law.
Speech hath been measured out in four divisions, the Brahmans who have understanding know them. Three kept in close concealment cause no motion; of speech, men speak only the fourth division. Rig Veda Book 1.45
Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Rig Veda Book 1. 48
Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers after Truth. Quran 12:7
Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single; three are the naves. What man hath understood it? Rig Veda Book 1. 48
Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers after Truth. Quran 12:7
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Understood by whom?
That is YOUR understanding, but that does not mean your understanding is correct.
Everyone BELIEVES their understanding is correct.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
"How are we to identify the Moshiach?
Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either)."
Who Is Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah)?
The word Mahdi means Guided one.
"Sunnis have a much more human view of the Mahdi, who they believe will be nothing less than the most rightly guided Muslim of his time".
.Mahdi - Wikipedia
"This statue depicts the bodhisattva Maitreya. Bodhisattvas are enlightened beings who postpone their own salvation in order to help all sentient beings."
Bodhisattva Maitreya (article) | Khan Academy
God is Monist, One, Non-Dual, but just as you perceive yourself having an intelligence, and assuming your child and grandchild or neighbors are operating with their independent seeming intelligence, the God of which I speak is the God encompassing and driving those intelligences or operations. The God is not a peer, or like you are in relation to your wife, or even like you are in relation to someone you consider superior or inferior, but is the Supreme Intelligence. If you think you have agency and intelligence, what us being called God is its cause, holder, executor or driver.
Furthermore, the reason God is made distinct from any object or even the totality of objects, is that in the elimination of all such objects, this Power or Driving Intelligence that is devoid of "stuff" or material continues to exist and operate and function, it is independent of material, while all material depends upon it while it appears.
So if the Universe was wiped away, all laws of physics related to this reality, this power which is imageless, formless, dimensionless, this essential intelligence or "Mind", Citta, would not be eliminated, nor is of the same "stuff" because it is a unique "non-stuff" that is the essential first basis, having the existence, the power to generate "stuff", the drive to do so, and the beginning of intelligence which is the Choice to do or not to do, what to generate specifically made up of so many yesses or nos or 1s and 0s.
So, You are God, in as far as God is generating what you are, controlling what I experience as "you" and what you experience as "you" just as a person playing a video game says "that is me on the screen", but when you turn the game off, only that thing you were "writing" or "playing" is gone away. You are not the player nor the game itself, nor did you generate any of it and even your moves were not only whatever seemed possible within the confines of what seemed available, but what you actually performed was driven and there was only an illusion of personal choice because you had been conditioned to do by various precise circumstances everything you did end up doing and there was no way to do anything else.
If you perceive or believe you have intelligence, of any sort, then God has intelligence, and if your decisions are determined by causes and conditioned by things going on, history, circumstances, genetics, diet, what you've heard or been exposed to, what determined all such ultimately as well as immediately is being here called "God" the driver behind all intelligences, the Supreme Intelligence or Thinker generating the Thoughts which are our experience moment to moment which immediately become not as they were and so "no more", "returning to the Like Nothing that is being called here God the Supreme Intelligence".
Now, in thinking upon this Supreme Truth, through names and their meanings, one seems to receive various pragmatic benefits and positive chemical stimulation.
Cool! Can you describe each faction or type so far as you understand it and where each would fit in? Like, what tree would one like myself be categorized as? Similar to "Am I Slytherin or Gryffindor? Ravenclaw or God-forbid, Hufflepuff"?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
By all these definitions Baha'u'llah qualifies to be the Messiah....
He never claimed to be divine, but was rather human...
He could perform miracles but he hid them...
He was rightly guided by God...
He postponed His own welfare to help all sentient beings...
Please note that "Him Who is the Eternal Truth" and the "Lord of Lords" refers to God, not Baha'u'llah, and the passage below refers to God's desires, which Baha'u'llah carried out. Baha'u'llah's Mission was to regenerate the whole world and establish the unity of its peoples and confer salvation upon all that dwell therein.
“Wert thou to consider, for but a little while, the outward works and doings of Him Who is the Eternal Truth, thou wouldst fall down upon the ground, and exclaim: O Thou Who art the Lord of Lords! I testify that Thou art the Lord of all creation, and the Educator of all beings, visible and invisible. I bear witness that Thy power hath encompassed the entire universe, and that the hosts of the earth can never dismay Thee, nor can the dominion of all peoples and nations deter Thee from executing Thy purpose. I confess that Thou hast no desire except the regeneration of the whole world, and the establishment of the unity of its peoples, and the salvation of all them that dwell therein.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 243
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
You have this problem because you believe in such a God. Brahman that I believe cannot be termed as intelligence, superior or inferior, holder, executor or driver. It does none of these things. In the truest sense, for an Advaitist, there is no self, no wife, no son, no grandchildren, no neighbours; no birth or death too. All what is there up to the grain of sand on a planet of a sun in the Andromeda galaxy too is Brahman, nothing excluded. I do not think you have the grounding or any inclination for such a philosophy. It is too foreign for you. But that is OK.
Don't worry, we have that kind of philosophy in Hinduism also. But that is not my philosophy.
Not definite till now. Perhaps the universe/s arise out of 'absolute nothing' and return back to 'absolute nothing' (Ex-nihilo). Perhaps existence and non-existence are just two phases of energy.
As mentioned earlier, I do not believe in existence of any God. So, How can I be a God? It seems to be happening though I am not controlling anything. That is what we term as 'maya'. I did not perform anything, though I seemed to perform so many things, including typing this post. If I am Brahman, then I don't do anything. Everything seems to happen just because of my presence. I am changeless.
Brahman does not require any intelligence. I may seem to have some intelligence (thanks to you for encouraging me), but I am myself only an illusion till I accept myself as Brahman. That alone is what exists. I have tried your idea of God and I found it unsatisfactory on so many counts.
Get the names from Wikipedia or any place else, and do what you will do with them. On my part I would not seed you with false thoughts.
You have this problem because you believe in such a God. Brahman that I believe cannot be termed as intelligence, superior or inferior, holder, executor or driver. It does none of these things. In the truest sense, for an Advaitist, there is no self, no wife, no son, no grandchildren, no neighbours; no birth or death too. All what is there up to the grain of sand on a planet of a sun in the Andromeda galaxy too is Brahman, nothing excluded. I do not think you have the grounding or any inclination for such a philosophy. It is too foreign for you. But that is OK.Don't worry, we have that kind of philosophy in Hinduism also. But that is not my philosophy.Not definite till now. Perhaps the universe/s arise out of 'absolute nothing' and return back to 'absolute nothing' (Ex-nihilo). Perhaps existence and non-existence are just two phases of energy.As mentioned earlier, I do not believe in existence of any God. So, How can I be a God? It seems to be happening though I am not controlling anything. That is what we term as 'maya'. I did not perform anything, though I seemed to perform so many things, including typing this post. If I am Brahman, then I don't do anything. Everything seems to happen just because of my presence. I am changeless.
Brahman does not require any intelligence. I may seem to have some intelligence (thanks to you for encouraging me), but I am myself only an illusion till I accept myself as Brahman. That alone is what exists. I have tried your idea of God and I found it unsatisfactory on so many counts.
Get the names from Wikipedia or any place else, and do what you will do with them. On my part I would not seed you with false thoughts.
It can not arise without there being in place a system or rules to arise, and the system or rules to arise would be a particular distinct "shape" that is, having parameters which thus define those rules.
You may be misunderstanding my particular use of the term "intelligence" as I am saying you are deterministically controlled (See Hard Determinism) by Chaos and the essential basis which can not be a "dead system" and it requires force for animation or operation.
Many Atheists are doomed into a trap of thinking the word "God" can only be used of something like a man - being or mind like their own, when a human's mind is just one of an infinite range of possible made up things, but that they were made up or "arose" at all, requires "ability to arise", and "drive to activate ability to arise operating", and "factors determining what arises rather than all things, no things" since what arises is nuanced or having distinct parameters or "shape" moment to moment.
The vast majority of those in the past, long before the Puranas, who recited the Vedas and wrote the Upanishads and Brahmanas, at the very least seemed to have a closer understanding to what I am saying than what you may be suggesting, which is maybe some kind of Western influence coming in or a confusion with terms.
I think we can both agree the Western Mind is stupid and backwards, and seems to have unfortunately made it impossible for you to interpret words in any way different from their broken anthropomorphism.
Anyone who says "there is no appearance of change" is simply a liar. Anyone who says "there is absolute nothing now" is a liar, because its plain to see in some way. Anyone who says "there is no substrate from which arising occurs, no rules for arising" is broken, its as illogical as saying in all senses and honesty that I have just now made no statement and typed nothing at all, the different between careful truth and obnoxious and blatant lies.
What you understand the word "gods" to exclusively refer to, do not exist, we agree on that, but nothing can arise without the possibility of it arising and force to activate or move into the possibilities and activate change.
Even in Buddhism it is understood there is "grasping", a word used of an active motion working through a conditional system with parameters, a particular shape.
You can read about the early Buddhist Abhidhamma and see that, though the language can become complex, it remains true that only liars say "there really is nothing at all now" and "there never was even a possibility for what is now" and "a system has no parameters", which are only misuse of words and meanings.
I do not think you have the grounding or any inclination for such a philosophy. It is too foreign for you. But that is OK.Don't worry, we have that kind of philosophy in Hinduism also. But that is not my philosophy.Not definite till now. Perhaps the universe/s arise out of 'absolute nothing' and return back to 'absolute nothing' (Ex-nihilo). Perhaps existence and non-existence are just two phases of energy.
I have tried your idea of God and I found it unsatisfactory on so many counts.
You, and others who have even read my detailed philosophical explanations and usages of quotes as well and built up logical discourse have never given any indication of even the slightest comprehension of anything I'm saying or even basic concepts like "you are not a body or being but only access an experience, like a single frame in a film reel at any moment which defines and is inclusive of whatever is thought that you are in that moment" those all just fly over everyones head no matter how simple I try to make it, because they are stuck on some stupid non-existent cartoon God they think I am talking about. I have found communicating even the simplest things completely impossible with people from anywhere around the world, which leaves only Hedonism as their only use, that is, to derive pleasure from them in some way or stimulation as a catalyst or source, but otherwise there is no hope in ever, even if one says "yes, I understand, I agree" and parrots whatever, that they actually do, there is no ability to verify anyone else is even really thinking at all (Thought Experiment on Existential Zombies, Solipsism).
I try though, because the irritation must give me something I can work with, but the feeling is like saying to someone "could you hand me that glass of water" and the person looks back offended and starts playing drums or something. I can only hope their random and complete misunderstanding or reaction might at least be somehow inspirational or entertaining.
Furthermore, since the word "intelligence" was also not understood in the way I was intending, it is clear that everyone is derived from from what is unconditioned necessarily, and so:
"
Life is but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury
Signifying nothing. "
Absurdism is the Truth and the Ultimate Reality, but that doesn't mean that the unconditioned has not generated appearances and appearances of parameters, however unecessarily, randomly, and filled with varieties and sorts of idiocies which any "things" are.
Things are done because there is nothing else to do but to Do, but to say Nothing Does and "what has no existence performs or also exists" is just defecating on already poor communications.
"Baha'u'llah's Mission was to regenerate the whole world and establish the unity of its peoples and confer salvation upon all that dwell therein."
Mission accomplished? Still time?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
What most people do not understand is that the Mission of regenerating the whole world and establishing the unity of its peoples was not going to be accomplished by Baha'u'llah Himself. His only 'job assignment' from God was to garner a few followers and write Scriptures so as to get the ball rolling.... It is the Baha'is and those working in concert with them who were charged with the duty of regenerating the whole world and establishing the unity of its peoples, and that will thereby confer salvation upon all that dwell therein.
An important point is that it is the Scriptures, what Baha'is refer to as the Writings of Baha'u'llah, that are what will be used as the framework for revitalizing the world and building the New World Order, what is also referred to as the Kingdom of God on earth.
“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7
Only if people follow Baha'u'llah's counsels will that New World Order be possible. Interestingly, many people are starting to follow His counsels even though they have never heard of Baha'u'llah, because it is becoming increasingly obvious that unity is necessary if humanity is necessary if humanity is to survive.
“The One true God bearethMe witness, and His creatures will testify, that not for a moment did I allow Myself to be hidden from the eyes of men, nor did I consent to shield My person from their injury. Before the face of all men I have arisen, and bidden them fulfil My pleasure. My object is none other than the betterment of the world and the tranquillity of its peoples. The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 286
What, if anything, is delaying, obstructing, or counteracting this work and its rapid progress or immediate accomplishment?
If God didn't want strife, what would be the cause of strife? If God didn't want something, what would impede God?
Mankind wants good for mankind, but God seems to want division, combat, differences, "vying", competition, war, struggle, opposition, dualities, contrasts.
Aupmanyav
Be your own guru
There are all kinds of mind in west, stupid as well as brilliant. I know where the stupid minds are, but we are not concerned with that in this topic. As I said, you do not have the grounding which will enable you to understand something about Brahman and you have your prejudices. I do not think anything can change that. The possibility for arising may be hiding in 'absolute nothing'. As I said this is something that science will know in future. This not a question for now. And who said that nothing exists now. I believe in existence of Brahman, I am not a nihilist. And I believe Brahman is changeless (all perceived change is illusion), eternal, omnipresent, form-independent and uninterested in worldly affairs.
Expletives will not get you anywhere. I do not think there is anything in your posts which require serious consideration. You are welcome to your views which are different from mine. I will keep with my views. As Qur'an says: Surah Al-Kafirun [109]
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What expletives were used? Perhaps I made a typo? I'm using my phone to type so some other word may have appeared? I am not trying to make you view anything the way I do, but lamenting the fact that there is no way to communicate what that even is to anyone at all. No expletives were intended, unless you mean the part about defecation on communication? I recall typing "defecation" or something similar. By that I meant feces, like that of an animal, up on some portion of the road, which most consider random, and so is a representation or similitude of this Universe and an extension and manifest representation of it in a microcosmic way. Wouldn't you agree? If you say the Universe is dog s**t then we are seemingly on the same page and understanding each other (in appearance only) quite well.
Its not "may be hiding" it is "has to be", there is no way using this language or any language where absolute nothing (not the Nothing of physics, not Space or a Vacuum with laws and a system for allowing or defining what it is) but the linguistic version which means no possibility for anything because there isn't anything including any possibility. That nothing, has no chance, if it were to ever exist, to permit anything to occur, and if anything occurred, there never even was that. You're probably still thinking of space though or blackness or something and science stuff. So you're right, but quit insulting my massive ego, since I'm the superior in intelligence between us. Thats to make you laugh by the way. Now, can we agree on the Dog S**t metaphor please?
"As I said, you do not have the grounding which will enable you to understand something about Brahman and you have your prejudices. I do not think anything can change that."
That pisses me off so much! How dare someone say such a thing to me? I'm the King of Gurus you Sage!
That pisses me off so much! How dare someone say such a thing to me? I'm the King of Gurus you Sage!
What do you suggest is the right grounding? Western Science? How did you become this way, and who have you pleased with it? Is the Colonialist Inside You Smiling that you've turned the religion, MY religion into rubbish, pseudo-science mumbo-jumbo and separated yourself from all those people in the country who you find fools and look down upon due to their not adopting what the White Man or European imposes and imposed on your understanding?
The hair on your head should please you, its like a bunch of white people standing on your head in approval!
(Jokes, please take no offense)