Proof of the supernatural

[9-10ths_Penguin]

No, it would seem that you are looking at the wrong set of odds here

If X amount of people play the lotto on a first time whim, pick some random number, of course, it is safe to say if one or more of them will win,
and it can be deemed coincidences, luck of the draw.
Happens all the time.
Hundreds of thousands play it every day

I honestly can no see how she can be added to those sets of odds.

You cant add her experience into a mix of spontaneous lotto players, because this is far from being labeled a spontaneous action of her.
Maybe I a wrong here, but never the less, her experiences is not spontaneous.
I do know, when it comes to odds, you don't mix unrelated situations to determine odds and probabilities.

They're not unrelated, and here's why: I sincerely doubt that this is the only thing you would take as evidence of God or the supernatural. If it wasn't this, it could've been something else.

How could you not exclude those possibilities?
They are very far fetched theories.

Of course, but are they more or less far fetched than God?

You do agree that they would be theoretically possible, right? If so, then the question we have to ask isn't whether they're likely or not; the question is whether they're more or less likely than the option you're proposing. And so far, you haven't given us any information to help us make that determination.

Rigged lotto?
Lets assume it was rigged, how did "they" know she woke up with that number?

I don't know. You said she told you; maybe she told other people.

How did they rig it for her?

I'm not sure, but you do agree that there are ways to rig lotteries, right? Like I mentioned, it's happened in the past.

Why would they rig it for a random total stranger and risk federal jail time to let her win a whole $500?
Wouldn't it much easier to just buy her washer for her?

I have no idea. Why would God rig it?

The amount of people that would have to be involved in the rigging, does not justify the rigging itself for $500 when they can easily get her a washer through so many other means.
Again, risking federal jail time does not justify the winnings of $500

Probably not to someone who's perfectly rational. Do you think that everyone is perfectly rational?

So she lied?
This involves her ability to "fake" the winning results to make it appear like she won.
X actually came out, but she convinced all the stores around us to display a false number, just so she could trick me and a few other people, including the local news who broadcasts the results.
Plus, she then paid me $25 out of her own money, somehow came up with $500 to help pull off the whole scam.
Seems like a bunch of work and money spent on such a trivial scam.
Again, the stores face serious fines and such, displaying fake lotto results and will loose their rights to sell lotto tickets.
All just to trick me and a few others, ehhh?

What about the rest of the world who knew the winning number was faked for the trickery/joke?
Are they all involved too or did they get hushed into not complaining to the stores and news for displaying the wrong winning number?

Well, in your original post, all you told us was that she told you she won and gave you some money. That would be very easy to fake.

I gave a couple of examples off the top of my head based on the facts at hand. You have the advantage of me here, since you're privy to facts that I don't know. Nevertheless, I bet that if you really thought about it, you could come up with possible explanations that fit all the facts... including the possibility that you still haven't really refuted: that it was just a coincidence.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

I mean you could be misremembering any aspect of the number.


Again, this was just an example of a factor which you could be misremembering.


But the story you're remembering may not actually be the events that actually took place. That's the point of misremembering things.


You make the connection. Again, that's the point of misremembering.

Again, it is a very simple story, none of your examples of misremembering are even relevant to the meat of the story and a simple google will reveal the payout on a dollar bet.
In my eyes, you are completely failing to justify that I am misremembering and what I could be wrong about that would change anything about the meat of the story.

That's irrelevant. You're still a fallible human being, with a mind that is just as susceptible to unconscious influences as any other.

Again, just because it could happen doesn't mean its justification that it is true.
You could very well be an ax murderer, here to find victims.
Did I just prove anything and where is the relevance?
That there are sickos on the web?
How would that be justification to think you may be a sicko murderer?

Yes it is. You've presented me with a very unlikely story and given me no reason to believe that it is true.

It is only unlikely in your eyes.
The story itself is very likely true as it is not true.
In your position, you cant claim either to have more weight as the true premise.
Your opinion does nothing to the story itself, the story remains true, because it happened.

I wouldn't. Claiming you had pizza for dinner is not unlikely or extraordinary in any way, shape or form. Claiming your friend's grandma had a vision of a number that won her money on the lottery, and ascribing that event to the exsitence of the supernatural, is definitely an extraordinary claim. I have no reason to believe your claim is true, and I definitely have no reason to believe that the supernatural is a reasonable explanation for it.

Exactly, but it still does nothing to the actual story and is just your opinion.
I hope you are not suggesting because I cant prove it to you, it concludes it didn't happen.
That is a fallacy.

If what you ascribe it to are accurate it would lead to world-changing revelations on a global scale.

Hence the reason why Historians believe in the Jesus thing.
Those that were with him left a huge mark on the world still evident today.
I assume if you were with me when I talked to her and seen what my story states, it may change your views on the supernatural.
Would it have?
Or would you reason it as coincidence to yourself?
[/quote]

No, it isn't. Not when a claim is as unlikely or extraordinary as yours, and the explanation you are presenting is far less likely than the possibility of you simply being mistaken. People are wrong all the time.

I fail to see why you being bias makes sense as being logical.
People being wrong, doesn't follow that people ARE wrong.

But you admit that it's a possibility, and it is clearly a more likely one than the one you present. Just because you think it happened, doesn't mean it happened. And just because you think the only explanation is the existence of the supernatural, that doesn't make that true either. In the absence of more evidence, the only reasonable conclusion to formulate is clearly the most likely one: that you are simply mistaken.

Bias and logical fallacy.

But that's exactly what you're doing. You're saying that this story is a fact, and saying that the only explanation is the existence of the supernatural.

The story is a fact, I was there, I would know.
Again, I am not saying that because I seen it, you should believe it.
That is on you to decide.
The supernatural is not only explanation, but to me, it is the most likely.
Coincidence does not wash.
You even said that the story is very unbelievable to you, so obviously you are choosing to not believe it over choosing it label it a coincidence.
Correct?
It cant be unbelievable to me because I seen it with my own eyes and coincidence does not wash.

If someone comes to you with a completely unbelievable story and tells you that the only possible explanation for it is fairies, your lack of belief in the credibility of their story is not a form of bias. It is called logic and reason.

Wrong, if someone told me a similar story, I would be open to all possibilities.
Just because it sounds unbelievable does not mean it is not true.

I think there have probably been too many threads on the problem of evil on these forums as it is, and since I am currently unaware of your specific definition or conception of God I cannot say with certainty whether or not the problem of evil is even an actual problem for your God or not. I agree, perhaps we'll see another thread on the subject in the near future and be able to discuss it further.

do not wish to derail this thread with that discussion

I wouldn't need her account. She spoke to her church, so I assumed there could be local papers, parish records, other accounts from any of your friends or family who were around at the time, that sort of thing.

People make claims of this sort of stuff all the time, are you not aware of this?
So why is what other peoples support on what I said any more relevant?
Never the less, if I were able to produce every single person that knows of this story to you, what makes them any more believable than me?
Are you bias against me personally?
Again, I am sure you heard stories of the supernatural like this before so I fail to see why you desire more people to show support for what I said.
In short, you prob don't believe that Jesus preformed miracles and you have tons of text and accounts from others to ponder over.
But you will believe my account if I had more people to confirm it?

Then why did you call this thread "Proof of the supernatural"? I get that you're at least asking people what they think, and accepting their objections to a degree, but you can hardly be said to not be trying to convince us of something when you go to so much effort in your disclaimer alone to try and tell us that it's definitely, assuredly true.

Fair enough. But, again, if that's the case, present your story as a talking point rather than "Proof of the supernatural".

Its a very remarkable story, why are you nick picking my method of how I presented it?
How would you have presented it?
You are being quite unfair to me for not presenting it as you may have.
We have our own minds and methods of doing things.

But yah, if anything, please explain the "proper" method to describe this event if it happened to you exactly as I explained it happened to me, using your style.
What did I do wrong?
I explained in my words and style on something I wished to share in a board relevant to the subject.
Amazing that you are criticizing me for it.:sorry1:

 

[Wandered Off]

"This happened nearly 30 years ago and I will never forget it and one of the many many reasons why I am convinced that God exists."

For the sake of the question, let's stipulate that a god gave a woman this winning lotto ticket exactly as it appears to you. Your timeline places this nifty miracle around 1985.

As it turns out, that year was the height of a particularly nasty famine in Ethiopia. Hundreds of thousands of people (many children) died of starvation and disease related to malnutrition.

So in effect, this god chose to intervene in human events by giving an old lady with a broken washing machine in the richest country on the planet a winning lotto ticket, while simultaneously choosing not to give lotto tickets or food or medication or squat else to starving Ethiopians who wouldn't even know what a washing machine is even if they happened to beat the odds and live long enough to get old.

Would such a decision have any implications for you about this god's sense of morality or priority? Or is ability to intervene enough to inspire worship regardless of how it is employed?

 

[Alceste]

Why would you say that?
As human beings we have need to know why everything happens.
It is part of us.

Should science just give up on trying to figure out the big bang then too?
Nothing in a natural explanation can explain matter to just pop into existence.
Specially all that matter out there.

No, we don't all need to explain things. Not the way you are, jumping to the conclusion that God was involved. Science is a method by which we can determine causes and effects that are true. Religion offers easy answers but no evidence that they are true.

I personally like to understand the world, but I also like my understanding to be factual, evidence based and well reasoned.

I don't disbelieve you, by the way. Stranger things have happened to me, personally, and I see no reason your story couldn't be legit. But I don't rule out the possibility that my experiences were imperfectly recorded or remembered, and I don't pretend to have an explanation for them beyond supposing that we currently have an imperfect understanding of time and consciousness.

Perhaps science will one day answer my questions. If not, I'm content to leave them unanswered.

Suffice it to say, your experience does not rationally lead to the conclusion that God exists, or cares who wind the lottery, or intervenes in such things. Those are things you already believed in, so you interpreted the experience in the light of your religious beliefs.

 

[Alceste]

Here's a thought experiment. Everything happens exactly as you describe, except she does not win the lottery. Would that be compelling evidence God does not exist, as far as you are concerned?

 

[IHaveTheGift]

No, we don't all need to explain things. Not the way you are, jumping to the conclusion that God was involved. Science is a method by which we can determine causes and effects that are true. Religion offers easy answers but no evidence that they are true.

I personally like to understand the world, but I also like my understanding to be factual, evidence based and well reasoned.

I don't disbelieve you, by the way. Stranger things have happened to me, personally, and I see no reason your story couldn't be legit. But I don't rule out the possibility that my experiences were imperfectly recorded or remembered, and I don't pretend to have an explanation for them beyond supposing that we currently have an imperfect understanding of time and consciousness.

Perhaps science will one day answer my questions. If not, I'm content to leave them unanswered.

Suffice it to say, your experience does not rationally lead to the conclusion that God exists, or cares who wind the lottery, or intervenes in such things. Those are things you already believed in, so you interpreted the experience in the light of your religious beliefs.

No, you are just interpreting this in the light of your non beliefs in the supernatural. :yes:

The "God of the gaps" rebuttal is used way to much by non-believers and personally, It is a terrible rebuttal.
I don't go through life labeling everything I cant explain as "it must be of God then"

Plus, you are completely begging the question throughout your whole post.
"We don't know why it happened, but we know it wasn't God because I don't believe in God"

I understand you can have your own opinions, but when that bleeds into thinking for me, you are dead wrong.

Huge different in thinking for others and offering actual theories for the events and
just because you are content leaving stuff unanswered does not mean that others don't have the real answer that you are not willing to accept as a possibility as being true.

"I don't believe in God so therefore God is not real"
Is a fallacy.

Please don't think for me and present it as a brute fact.
Thank you.

 

[Alceste]

No, you are just interpreting this in the light of your non beliefs in the supernatural. :yes:

The "God of the gaps" rebuttal is used way to much by non-believers and personally, It is a terrible rebuttal.
I don't go through life labeling everything I cant explain as "it must be of God then"

Plus, you are completely begging the question throughout your whole post.
"We don't know why it happened, but we know it wasn't God because I don't believe in God"

I understand you can have your own opinions, but when that bleeds into thinking for me, you are dead wrong.

Huge different in thinking for others and offering actual theories for the events and
just because you are content leaving stuff unanswered does not mean that others don't have the real answer that you are not willing to accept as a possibility as being true.

"I don't believe in God so therefore God is not real"
Is a fallacy.

Please don't think for me and present it as a brute fact.
Thank you.

Nowhere in my post did I say anything remotely resembling the red herring you've posted here. I am saying you have not made a persuasive or rational connection that would lead anyone to the conclusion God exists or had anything to do with this experience. You can either acknowledge that this is the case or present that rational argument for our consideration.

If you are unable or unwilling to make a persuasive argument for a connection between this event and your religious beliefs, you should not be offended or surprised that people are not persuaded.

* please note the complete absence of truth claims regarding the existence or non-existence of God in this post.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Nowhere in my post did I say anything remotely resembling the red herring you've posted here. I am saying you have not made a persuasive or rational connection that would lead anyone to the conclusion God exists or had anything to do with this experience. You can either acknowledge that this is the case or present that rational argument for our consideration.

If you are unable or unwilling to make a persuasive argument for a connection between this event and your religious beliefs, you should not be offended or surprised that people are not persuaded.

* please note the complete absence of truth claims regarding the existence or non-existence of God in this post.

can you explain how these things are not thinking for me and presenting it as brute fact then?

1)Not the way you are, jumping to the conclusion that God was involved.
2)Religion offers easy answers but no evidence that they are true.
3)Perhaps science will one day answer my questions. If not, I'm content to leave them unanswered.
4)Those are things you already believed in, so you interpreted the experience in the light of your religious beliefs.

1)you are stating you know exactly why I determined what I did-thinking for me
2)you are claiming I am using "the God of the gaps" - thinking for me again
3)it seems you are presenting that should I think like you and just leave things unanswered because you don't believe in God
4)thinking for me once again

Now, if you said this, I would relate to you.
"I don't believe in God, but obviously you do and feel you have merit because of your personal experiences, but I don't feel that way about said situation"

But you are not, you are thinking for me and presenting it as a brute fact that we should all follow as truth, because you said so.

This is where atheists and theists clash, obviously neither side can prove their case, but I am not presenting my side as a brute fact that everyone needs to follow and think as truth.
That is what you are doing.

My apologizes if I am just misrepresenting you.

 

[Bunyip]

If every word of the story is true it would be an example of a coincidence, not the supernatural. In order to be evidence of the supernatural, surely something unexplainable by natural means would need to occur? Coincidences are perfectly pedestrian and natural.

 

[outhouse]

Proof of the supernatural

WHERE IS IT?

 

[Slapstick]

Proof of the supernatural

WHERE IS IT?

Boo!
ahhh... hahaha.. I scared you with my supernatural ghost impression. :biglaugh:
The one I made up.

 

[zenzero]

Friend IHaveTheGift,

The other day you had this story:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/seekers-dir/161120-what-do-next-need-lots-advice.html


and now this:
Which is the TRUE 'you'.
This is certain that YOU DO HAVE A GIFT but are you using it for the purpose meant?
Am not sure but it is possible to dream about such things and a movie 'FUKREY' in India has the same story.
In fact my neighbour did not know she was pregnant. Her daughter who is 3/4yrs old told her 'Mommy, Allah came to me and told me that I am getting a baby brother and that I should play with him". Next day she visit her gynaecologist and her pregnancy got confirmed from the test. Now if it will be a boy for further confirmation of the child's dream is yet to be seen.
WATCH THIS SPACE for further on the above story.

suggest that use that gift to be conscious of THAT consciousness which is the gift of LIFE itself!

Love & rgds

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Friend IHaveTheGift,
Which is the TRUE 'you'.
This is certain that YOU DO HAVE A GIFT but are you using it for the purpose meant?
Am not sure but it is possible to dream about such things and a movie 'FUKREY' in India has the same story.
In fact my neighbour did not know she was pregnant. Her daughter who is 3/4yrs old told her 'Mommy, Allah came to me and told me that I am getting a baby brother and that I should play with him". Next day she visit her gynaecologist and her pregnancy got confirmed from the test. Now if it will be a boy for further confirmation of the child's dream is yet to be seen.
WATCH THIS SPACE for further on the above story.

Also see that you are a heavy poster with 10.4 posts a day; just suggest that use that gift to be conscious of THAT consciousness which is the gift of LIFE itself!

Love & rgds

Frankly, I have no idea what you are talking about.
What does my current life problems have to do with something that happened 30 years ago?
What exactly does one have to do with the other?

On the subject of my post asking for advice, if you wish to discuss that, plz reply to that thread if you wish to engage it.
If you also wish to discuss the movie "FUKREY" please create your own thread, never heard of it before now.
But will google it, sounds interesting.

Also,
If you have issues with me being very active here, you can be assured, if that admins had a problem with that, I am sure they would tell me to not be as active here.
Is that really an issue?

edit
To be honest, you copy pasting my thread on asking for advice here, is rather rude and insulting.
I ask you to remove it as its not part of this discussion and to plz take that up with me in the other thread if you really wish to offer advice.
Thank you very much.

 

[Alceste]

can you explain how these things are not thinking for me and presenting it as brute fact then?



1)you are stating you know exactly why I determined what I did-thinking for me
2)you are claiming I am using "the God of the gaps" - thinking for me again
3)it seems you are presenting that should I think like you and just leave things unanswered because you don't believe in God
4)thinking for me once again

Now, if you said this, I would relate to you.
"I don't believe in God, but obviously you do and feel you have merit because of your personal experiences, but I don't feel that way about said situation"

But you are not, you are thinking for me and presenting it as a brute fact that we should all follow as truth, because you said so.

This is where atheists and theists clash, obviously neither side can prove their case, but I am not presenting my side as a brute fact that everyone needs to follow and think as truth.
That is what you are doing.

My apologizes if I am just misrepresenting you.

I'm not thinking for you, I'm asking you to explain the thought process that led you to consider this odd experience powerful evidence that your religion is true. If you hope to persuade others, this is a necessary exercise.

 

[IHaveTheGift]

I'm not thinking for you, I'm asking you to explain the thought process that led you to consider this odd experience powerful evidence that your religion is true. If you hope to persuade others, this is a necessary exercise.

I thought I fully explained it in the OP?
Can you please explain what part is confusing to you?

Forgive me if I am appearing that I am trying to persuade others.
I am not, I am sharing a story from my past and willing to debate what the story means to others.

 

[zenzero]

Friend IHaveTheGift,

Sorry have no issue with anyone.
Rgds removing the thread, use the 2nd button on the right hand corner which the RF staff reads and takes action.
Rest just felt the stories do not match the personality whose present status of seeking advice turns violent on given advice which being at RF a religious forum feel should be equally shared as it is an open forum too.

Take Care.

Love & rgds

 

[IHaveTheGift]

Friend IHaveTheGift,

Sorry have no issue with anyone.
Rgds removing the thread, use the 2nd button on the right hand corner which the RF staff reads and takes action.
Rest just felt the stories do not match the personality whose present status of seeking advice turns violent on given advice which being at RF a religious forum feel should be equally shared as it is an open forum too.

Take Care.

Love & rgds

You sure sound like you have issues with me, even in this post.
Violent? what on earth are you talking about?

No, I asked you to edit your post and remove your copy/paste of something that has nothing to do with this thread and is quite rude of you to do.
You have some time to edit posts before they lock in, currently you can still edit that out.
It simply does not belong in this thread and will derail this thread if people begin to offer advice to me here on it.

I have already reported your post, but why should we bother the admins when we are adults here and I asked you nicely to remove it.
Thank you

 

[zenzero]

Friend IHaveTheGift,

Hope the editing satisfies your need.
Besides if the staff feels it is unfit, gladly leave it to them to do the needful.

Love & rgds

 

[Sunstone]

If you can explain it, please do, so far, I know of only one explanation that fits.
It has to be something of the supernatural.
I say supernatural, because nothing natural could possibly be the explanation.
....
Back when I was 19, I was playing Basketball with some friends and a friend came to me and said her gramma wanted to talk to me.
This old woman never liked me, she hated all us kids, she was terrifying.
But since she was disabled, its not as if she could "get me" if you will.
So I went to her house to see what she wanted.

She told me she woke up with the number 147 drilled into her head, she even claimed she could see it floating in the air, if you will and because I was very well known as being good in math, she chose me to ask about it.
Obviously, I had no damn clue what 147 meant, none at all.
She went on to explain that she had prayed to God all night to help her, as their washer had broken and she felt it was God talking to her.
About that time, the TV commercial about the lottery came on, she looked at me and said that's it, God gave me the winning number.

She asked me about the lottery, how much it cost, how much it paid, etc.
So I explained it to her.
$1 bet pays off $500 if it comes out exact and I said that most people put a back up on it with an extra $1, so if it comes out in a different order, you still win $83.
She had 3 dollars to her name, elected to play it $1 straight and $1 boxed and begged me to use the last dollar to play it myself.
I declined, I didn't want to take her last dollar.

So I wrote the number on my hand with a pen so I wouldn't forget it, and went to play it for her and gave her the ticket.
Pretty much forgot about it and went back to B-ball.
Later that day, here comes her granddaughter running up to me.
"she won" "she won" "she won"......
I was like, yah ok, I thought she was teasing me.
Went back to her house, sure nuff, there she was holding a handful of money.
She hit it straight and boxed $583.
She gave me $25 too
Got her washer and gave some to her church and what ever else she did with the rest.


This happened nearly 30 years ago and I will never forget it and one of the many many reasons why I am convinced that God exists.

OK, let's do a thought experiment. It happened just as you described. Moreover, it wasn't just a coincidence.

1) What makes you think it had anything to do with the supernatural?

2) What makes you think it is evidence for the existence of deity?

 

[Alceste]

I thought I fully explained it in the OP?
Can you please explain what part is confusing to you?

Forgive me if I am appearing that I am trying to persuade others.
I am not, I am sharing a story from my past and willing to debate what the story means to others.

No, you didn't explain any of your thought process. You recounted your experience, then concluded by saying this is one of the reasons you think God exists. You didn't make any kind of connection. Moreover, you named the thread "proof of the supernatural", when it's nothing but an odd experience you had that could easily have been a coincidence. The odds of matching three numbers are relatively high, and people dream all kinds of odd things. The thought experiment I recommended where everything happens except the part where she won should have helped you realize this isn't proof of anything - not even compelling evidence.