Proof of the Torah

[shunyadragon]

One recent good source is:

The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Ancient Isreal edited by Susan Nidith, 2016

relevant chapter: Chapter 9 - The emergence of Israel and Theories of Ethnogenesis

Still waiting . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

@shunyadragon, let's review and reset this discussion.


Now listen very carefully: even assuming that quote #4 approximated a coherent sentence, deprecating the Exodus narrative in no way serves as evidence "that the exodus may have been based on an actual exodus from Babylon," nor does it elevate such nonsense to the status of "a very real option."

If you can offer any peer-reviewed work suggesting such a basis please feel free to reference it.

Now lisen carefully!!!!!!!!!!!!

I considered that it may be an optional interpretation, and not a factual alternate proposal for an Egyptian exodus. The problem remains the archeological vacuum supporting a Biblical exodus leaving it open to interpretation. The exodus from Babylon remains the only archeologically documented exodus of the Hebrews from anywhere.

The bottom line is there is scant or actually no evidence to support the Biblical exodus. In fact the heavy evidence is that no such event took place.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Now lisen carefully!!!!!!!!!!!!

^ perhaps a few too many exclamation points and one too few 't' -- oh, well.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

One recent good source is:

The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Ancient Isreal edited by Susan Nidith, 2016

relevant chapter: Chapter 9 - The emergence of Israel and Theories of Ethnogenesis

Still waiting . . .

I'm impressed. If your telling me that

• you've read the book, and
• it raises the possibility of the Exodus reflecting an exodus from Babylon,

I'll consider purchasing the book (despite the steep cost). Why don't you quote a few relevant lines?

Actually, I rather like Niditch and own her War in the Hebrew Bible.

 

[shunyadragon]

^ perhaps a few too many exclamation points and one too few 't' -- oh, well.

Oh well! Still your responses are 'a failure to respond.'

There is a reasoning for the Biblical exodus possibly extrapolated as the Babylonian exodus, and that is the origin of the basis of Hebrew Laws and much of the texts of the Pentateuch, and also the earliest references to the Psalms. The Hebrew written language did not evolve until after ~900-800 BC. The earliest forms of the Commandments and Law as well as the mythology of Genesis, and parts of the Psalms are in much older Babylonian, Ugarite, and Canaanite cuneiform tablets. It is more logical that the Commandments and reaffirmation of monotheism possibly originated with the Hebrews returning from exile in Babylonia.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm impressed. If your telling me that

• you've read the book, and
• it raises the possibility of the Exodus reflecting an exodus from Babylon,

I'll consider purchasing the book (despite the steep cost). Why don't you quote a few relevant lines?

Again, the reference I made was the that 'I considered that it may be an optional interpretation, and not a factual alternate proposal for an Egyptian exodus. The problem remains the archeological vacuum supporting a Biblical exodus leaving it open to interpretation. The exodus from Babylon remains the only archeologically documented exodus of the Hebrews from anywhere.

The bottom line is there is scant or actually no evidence to support the Biblical exodus. In fact the heavy evidence is that no such event took place.

Actually, I rather like Niditch and own her War in the Hebrew Bible.

Yes I have read the book, and yes it is available to me, not mine. It is a very intense academic source on ancient Israel archeology. I would have to type in the references in particular the chapter I referenced. There are other references, but they are not currently available to me such as:

Syro-Palestinian Archaeology: Syro- Palestinian Archaeology. Archaeology of Israel, Ashkelon, Gezer, Mam****, Acre, Israel, Tel Hazor, Tel Megiddo, Tzippori, Old City (Jerusalem), Bethlehem, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nablus

Frederic P. Miller, Agnes F. Vandome, John McBrewster
Alphascript Publishing, 2009

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The Wiley Blackwell Companion to Ancient Isreal edited by Susan Nidith, 2016

relevant chapter: Chapter 9 - The emergence of Israel and Theories of Ethnogenesis

Oh, boo.

It turns out that chapter nine was authored by Faust. I happen to own his

Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion and Resistance​

and, in fact, have recommended it here in the past. Faust's views are introduced as follows:

The consensus today is that all previous suggestions have some truth regarding the origins of the ancient Israelites (Dever 1995a: 210-211; 2003; Finkelstein 1991: 57; Finkelstein and Na'aman 1994: 13; Kempinski 1995; Miller and Hates 1986: 85; Gottwald 1983: 6; 1992: 72; see also Rainey 2001; 75). In Finkelstein's words on Israel, 'the people who formed this entity came from diverse backgrounds -- groups of sedentarizing nomads, withdrawing urban elements, northern people, groups from the southern steppe, etc.", adding that a point of dispute is 'the ratios of the various groups in the Iron I population ...' (1991: 57). That is, while all may agree that there is some truth to all of the above, the percentage and weight given to each process varies. Most scholars that accept the core historicity of an Exodus (see below), agree that it is likely a very small group, but one that probably gave much of its history to the new group that emerged. Some other elements could be traced to other groups whose 'totemic/clan' name might always be a mystery to us (see also Dever 2003). [see Origins Reconsidered: In Focus, paragraph 6 - JS]​

It's an excellent book; you should read it. You'll find nothing about the Exodus narrative reflecting an exodus from Babylon.

Stop blowing smoke. It's dishonest.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

@shunyadragon, let's review and reset this discussion.

1. 
   
2. 
   

Now listen very carefully: even assuming that quote #4 approximated a coherent sentence, deprecating the Exodus narrative in no way serves as evidence "that the exodus may have been based on an actual exodus from Babylon," nor does it elevate such nonsense to the status of "a very real option."

If you can offer any peer-reviewed work suggesting such a basis please feel free to reference it.

I would have to find it again, but I am not stating it as fact but as a possibility that has been suggested.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I would have to find it again, but I am not stating it as fact but as a possibility that has been suggested.

The world is awash with fanciful drivel proffered as possibilities. This is, in good part, because the 'possibility-threshhold' is not a particularly high one.

I have read a good deal on the subject of Israelite ethnogenesis, including works by Dever, Faust, Finkelstein, Frendo, Isserling, Mazar, Redmond, and others. None, to my knowledge, have ever suggested that the Exodus narrative was inspired by the return from exile. There's good reason for this.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

The world is awash with fanciful drivel proffered as possibilities. This is, in good part, because the 'possibility-threshhold' is not a particularly high one.

I have read a good deal on the subject of Israelite ethnogenesis, including works by Dever, Faust, Finkelstein, Frendo, Isserling, Mazar, Redmond, and others. None, to my knowledge, have ever suggested that the Exodus narrative was inspired by the return from exile. There's good reason for this.

Are they followers of a religion which claims that they came from Egypt?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Are they followers of a religion which claims that they came from Egypt?

Look them up.

By the way, your implication that a Jew is incapable of producing relevant and valuable scholarship is more than a little ugly.

 

[CogentPhilosopher]

Look them up.

By the way, your implication that a Jew is incapable of producing relevant and valuable scholarship is more than a little ugly.

Wow wow wow!

Who the **** said that?!?

I'm saying that someone who has religious beliefs that accepts or denies the exodus taking place may have bias,

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm saying that someone who has religious beliefs that accepts or denies the exodus taking place may have bias,

Or they may not, but it's interesting that you seem to be more interested in the authors' religious affiliations than in their credentials and reputation among their peers.

 

[Sakeenah]

Because the Torah doesn't belong only to the Jews. As a Christian I was raised on stories of the Torah. Though honestly I was often surprised coming across other Christian who didn't know who didn't for example know the story of Noah and the Ark.



Yet the Quran references the Torah many times and Christians claim salvation would come through the Jews.



Claiming anything doesn't make it true. If Exodus didn't happen, if Moses never existed then the Torah isn't even about the Jews. If it is folklore then Christian and Muslims claims to the Torah are as good as any other. It's part of their religious history as much as the Jews. If the biblical God exists, then it's history belongs to everybody.

If there's not, then one fictional account about God is as good as any other.

I just wanted to say that as muslims we believe that the Torah was revealed to Moses as a guidace to the jews also known as Beni Israeel(Children of Israeel).

And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel.(32:23)

"And We gave Moses the Scripture and made it a guidance for the Children of Israel that you not take other than Me as Disposer of affairs," (17:2)


"And We had certainly given Moses guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture" (40:53)

 

[shunyadragon]

Oh, boo.

It turns out that chapter nine was authored by Faust. I happen to own his

Israel's Ethnogenesis: Settlement, Interaction, Expansion and Resistance​

and, in fact, have recommended it here in the past. Faust's views are introduced as follows:

The consensus today is that all previous suggestions have some truth regarding the origins of the ancient Israelites (Dever 1995a: 210-211; 2003; Finkelstein 1991: 57; Finkelstein and Na'aman 1994: 13; Kempinski 1995; Miller and Hates 1986: 85; Gottwald 1983: 6; 1992: 72; see also Rainey 2001; 75). In Finkelstein's words on Israel, 'the people who formed this entity came from diverse backgrounds -- groups of sedentarizing nomads, withdrawing urban elements, northern people, groups from the southern steppe, etc.", adding that a point of dispute is 'the ratios of the various groups in the Iron I population ...' (1991: 57). That is, while all may agree that there is some truth to all of the above, the percentage and weight given to each process varies. Most scholars that accept the core historicity of an Exodus (see below), agree that it is likely a very small group, but one thaht probably gave much of its history to the new group that emerged. Some other elements could be traced to other groups whose 'totemic/clan' name might always be a mystery to us (see also Dever 2003). [see Origins Reconsidered: In Focus, paragraph 6 - JS]​

It's an excellent book; you should read it. You'll find nothing about the Exodus narrative reflecting an exodus from Babylon.

Stop blowing smoke. It's dishonest.

It is not blowing smoke, nor is it dishonest. It indeed fits the scenario of the exodus from Babylon. It is an interpretation and never put fourth as factual.

Jews that remained in Hills of Judah still practiced a mixed polytheism of the Ugarite/Canaanite belief systems, which are reflected in some of the older parts of the text of the Pentateuch. The Jews that returned from Babylon had a more Monotheistic tradition and their texts adapted from Babylonian texts. The dominated rejecting the Ugarite/ Canaanite polytheism, which is the theme of the Biblical exodus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

It is not blowing smoke, nor is it dishonest. It indeed fits the scenario of the exodus from Babylon. It is an interpretation and never put fourth as factual.

I'll wait for you to provide the relevant Faust quote -- assuming, of course, that there is one, which I sincerely doubt.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'll wait for you to provide the relevant Faust quote -- assuming, of course, that there is one, which I sincerely doubt.

There is no Faust quote, and I never claimed there was.

 

[Tumah]

What lineage? The only evidence of this lineage at best is you share DNA with all the other folks who had ancestry from the middle-east. Anyone who has this ancestry from the middle east can make this claim and it may even be true. However, somehow because of your religious identity you feel you have the better claim.

Even if that were so, that still grants Jews the better claim because Christians don't have that and Muslims don't claim that.
They do both agree that G-d gave Jews the Torah. So that means 3 of the three religions agree that G-d gave the Torah to the Jews. 1 out of 3 religions agree with what happened after that. That gives us the strongest claim.

I share DNA and a religion with all other people who share a common history that links us with the nation that was living in the land of Israel. I don't think there is anyone that questions that.

Look, sorry, your the one making this about your religious identity and your religion. So your religious history is better than everyone else's religious history because you feel your religious identity gives your narrative greater credibility. It doesn't. It just doesn't. I don't know what else to tell you.

You can start with a logical reason why it shouldn't.

According to you and your religious belief. Great

And according to what the Book says in it...

Guess what, neither do you.

Sure I do. The Book itself says so.

 

[Tumah]

Isaiah 24, Isaiah 34 are talking about Judgement on the whole world for not understanding the things in Isaiah.

It is a good job YHVH wasn't going to ask the Jews to share this information, and be priests to the world (Isaiah 61:6, Zechariah 8:23).

See verses 34 and 8 respectively.

 

[wizanda]

See verses 34 and 8 respectively.

Sorry for once, can you be more specific, please?