Prop H8 mostly upheld

[darkendless]

You started the most recent mess with your OP. Do you realize that you LOSE support with that bad attitude? What's needed to get equal rights is more education and a better run campaign - not mud slinging.

People should not have to campaign for equal rights in western civilisations.

Sure gay people may lose support, but the mormon church in general (exceptions exist of course, i recognise you as one of them) has lost respect from a lot of people. Its attrocious that they can get away with it. And they say America is a nation where church and state are separate?

 

[Smoke]

You started the most recent mess with your OP.

How gauche of me to mention the actions of your church.

Do you realize that you LOSE support with that bad attitude?

Some people's "support" is remarkably easy to lose.

What's needed to get equal rights is more education and a better run campaign - not mud slinging.

It's not mudslinging to tell the truth about your church's involvement in this. If you really object to mudslinging, you ought to tell your Prophet.

 

[J Bryson]

Great - Prop 8 decision comes down and people see fit to attack Mormons again. Why the **** did I ever support you???

Did you support the fight for equal rights because it was the right thing to do, or because you thought that it would keep people from attacking Mormons? I suspect that it was the first, which is enough reason to keep supporting this fight.

 

[gnomon]

IF religion ever did have a claim to marriage, they gave it up long long ago and are just now wanting it back.

.....

i also find it rather hypocritical how they argue not to redefine the word 'marriage' when the definition they argue over is itself a redefinition of the word.

Fortunately for us, religion never had a claim to marriage.

You are right as well. The hypocrisy in certain religious believers claiming the sanctity of marriage and its tradition do not realize that there supposed long held traditional definition of marriage does not even match their modern definition of marriage.

Well forgive me if I don't buy that. My religion very much makes a claim on the importance of marriage extending back to the time of Adam and Eve.

Hinduism makes a claim as well. Shinto. Buddhism. A wide variety of Native American traditions. Many, many more in Africa. Who knows how many more traditions that are no more representing millions of other human beings throughout history.

Which religion makes the strongest claim?

Great - Prop 8 decision comes down and people see fit to attack Mormons again. Why the **** did I ever support you???

I see no attacking. I see misanthropic clown debating with others in a rather civil manner.

You started the most recent mess with your OP. Do you realize that you LOSE support with that bad attitude? What's needed to get equal rights is more education and a better run campaign - not mud slinging.

Smoke mentioned three major Christian groups. He did not single out Mormons.

Besides, anyone who believes that the opposition to marriage equality is not driven by religious organizations in this nation is just naive.

 

[Watchmen]

I have to raise an eyebrow at a group that demands tolerance yet fails to demonstrate its own tolerance of another group.

 

[Smoke]

I have to raise an eyebrow at a group that demands tolerance yet fails to demonstrate its own tolerance of another group.

And I'm capable of recognizing the barefaced hypocrisy of people who moan about the "intolerance" of people who don't respect their intolerance. Nobody here is intolerant of Mormons. Nobody here is suggesting that Mormons should be stripped of their civil rights. What your church is doing is intolerance. If you want respect, then earn it, but don't pretend to mistake my criticism or my lack of respect for intolerance. I'm abundantly tolerant of Mormons and Mormonism; the reverse is not true, and you know it.

 

[gnomon]

I have to raise an eyebrow at a group that demands tolerance yet fails to demonstrate its own tolerance of another group.

Raised eyebrow indeed.

The Church's stand on homosexual relations provides another arena where we offend the devil. I expect that the statement of the ________________ and the ______ against homosexual marriages will continue to be assaulted. Satan is only interested in our misery, which he promotes by trying to persuade men and women to act contrary to God’s plan. One way he does this is by encouraging the inappropriate use of sacred creative powers. A bona fide marriage is one between a man and a woman solemnized by the proper legal or ecclesiastical authority. Only sexual relations between husband and wife within the bonds of marriage are acceptable before the Lord.

There is some widely accepted theory extant that homosexuality is inherited. How can this be? No scientific evidence demonstrates absolutely that this is so. Besides, if it were so, it would frustrate the whole plan of mortal happiness. Our designation as men or women began before this world was. In contrast to the socially accepted doctrine that homosexuality is inborn, a number of respectable authorities contend that homosexuality is not acquired by birth. The false belief of inborn homosexual orientation denies to repentant souls the opportunity to change and will ultimately lead to discouragement, disappointment, and despair.


Alternatives to the legal and loving marriage between a man and a woman are helping to unravel the fabric of human society. I am sure this is pleasing to the devil. The fabric I refer to is the family. These so-called alternative life-styles must not be accepted as right, because they frustrate God’s commandment for a life-giving union of male and female within a legal marriage as stated in Genesis. If practiced by all adults, these life-styles would mean the end of the human family.

Opposing Satan!
Any sexual relations outside the bonds of marriage, especially among homosexuals, ultimately leads to discouragement, disappointment and despair!
Unravel the fabric of human society!

OH Smoke! You know not what you do to the whole of the Universe!

I made the quote a game as well. Let's see who can fill in the blanks. And from which horse's mouth this quote was taken directly from AND before someone states I'm not sourcing the quote.....let's just see who can guess first.

Tolerance indeed. I think both my eyebrows are crawling all over my face at this point.

 

[darkendless]

And I'm capable of recognizing the barefaced hypocrisy of people who moan about the "intolerance" of people who don't respect their intolerance. Nobody here is intolerant of Mormons. Nobody here is suggesting that Mormons should be stripped of their civil rights. What your church is doing is intolerance. If you want respect, then earn it, but don't pretend to mistake my criticism or my lack of respect for intolerance. I'm abundantly tolerant of Mormons and Mormonism; the reverse is not true, and you know it.

To mainstream mormons its not intolerance its social justice and you know it. They won't change because they're too ignorant to recognise that their stance is wrong.

 

[Magic Man]

I don't think the Book of Mormon discusses divorce. Nor did I imply it did. Modern day revelation has helped outline the church's policy on divorce. In our church, modern day revelation trumps scripture. And this is off topic, on reflection

Right, "modern day revelation" meaning "ignoring the bits we don't like and supporting other bits we do like".

Watchmen, you really have perfected the "Woe is me" thing. Well done.

 

[Smoke]

To mainstream mormons its not intolerance its social justice and you know it.

They think their intolerance is justice. They think their Lord calls them to intolerance. Spencer Kimball and Neal Maxwell waxed eloquent on the evils of tolerance, and while church leaders since then have tried to cover their actions with a veneer of concern for the poor, perverted homosexual (who can change, with their help, of course), only a fool would mistake their actions for tolerance.

They won't change because they're too ignorant to recognise that their stance is wrong.

In many cases that's true.

 

[Watchmen]

I see no one wants to discuss what I'm EXACTLY SPOT ON ABOUT: Education and a better run campaign are superior to bashing religious groups when it comes to furthering the equal rights.

 

[Watchmen]

They think their intolerance is justice. They think their Lord calls them to intolerance. Spencer Kimball and Neal Maxwell waxed eloquent on the evils of tolerance, and while church leaders since then have tried to cover their actions with a veneer of concern for the poor, perverted homosexual (who can change, with their help, of course), only a fool would mistake their actions for tolerance.


In many cases that's true.

So now you're talking about dead Mormons. Fantastic.

 

[Magic Man]

I see no one wants to discuss what I'm EXACTLY SPOT ON about: Education and a better run campaign are superior to bashing religious groups when it comes to furthering the equal rights.

Why would we discuss that? It's true to an extent. Yes, education and a better-run campaign are the keys. However, calling out (which is the real term for what you call "bashing") religious groups who oppose equality is a perfectly valid thing to do, too.

 

[Smoke]

I see no one wants to discuss what I'm EXACTLY SPOT ON about: Education and a better run campaign are superior to bashing religious groups when it comes to furthering the equal rights.

Pointing out the undeniable facts, the same facts your church's leaders proudly trumpet on every possible occasion, is not bashing. You don't like the shameful behavior of your leaders mentioned; I get that. When they stop behaving in a shameful manner, people will stop harping on it.

 

[Smoke]

So now you're talking about dead Mormons. Fantastic.

Would you like to take the opportunity to publicly disown them? Would you like to explain exactly how tolerant your church really is now?

 

[gnomon]

I see no one wants to discuss what I'm EXACTLY SPOT ON about: Education and a better run campaign are superior to bashing religious groups when it comes to furthering the equal rights.

Do you educate your fellow Mormons about the issues?

Do you challenge those who oppose marriage equality outside of this forum?

People are trying to educate but religious organizations keep flipping out when someone mentions a child's book about having two mommies.

How can people educate when religious organizations keep standing in the way?

Do you have any suggestions?

Or does merely popping in and whining about your faith being attacked and merely stating that people should be educating make you think you actually have a point?

Prior civil rights campaigns worked because they boycotted businesses. Some gay groups tried that and got smacked down by a bunch of cowards.

Gay organizations put together a march and even the left and moderate religious believers say they are being ostentatious.

Everything they do is shot down not by religious extremists but by a bunch of moderates.

 

[Watchmen]

Why would we discuss that? It's true to an extent. Yes, education and a better-run campaign are the keys. However, calling out (which is the real term for what you call "bashing") religious groups who oppose equality is a perfectly valid thing to do, too.

I'm not questioning its validity - I'm questioning its effectiveness.

 

[Watchmen]

Do you educate your fellow Mormons about the issues?

Do you challenge those who oppose marriage equality outside of this forum?

People are trying to educate but religious organizations keep flipping out when someone mentions a child's book about having two mommies.

How can people educate when religious organizations keep standing in the way?

Do you have any suggestions?

Or does merely popping in and whining about your faith being attacked and merely stating that people should be educating make you think you actually have a point?

Prior civil rights campaigns worked because they boycotted businesses. Some gay groups tried that and got smacked down by a bunch of cowards.

Gay organizations put together a march and even the left and moderate religious believers say they are being ostentatious.

Everything they do is shot down not by religious extremists but by a bunch of moderates.

yes

yes

they can do better

there are many ways to educate

my first suggestion is to focus on educating and running better campaigns rather than whining about religions

i do have a point - your failure to recognize it doesn't change that fact

religion can't be gay activists' crutch - they can educate and run a better campaign

so try something else

 

[Watchmen]

Pointing out the undeniable facts, the same facts your church's leaders proudly trumpet on every possible occasion, is not bashing. You don't like the shameful behavior of your leaders mentioned; I get that. When they stop behaving in a shameful manner, people will stop harping on it.

I don't care what you say about my leaders. My point is it's not effective in the fight for equal rights.

 

[Watchmen]

Would you like to take the opportunity to publicly disown them? Would you like to explain exactly how tolerant your church really is now?

It's not about the Church - it's about the ineffectiveness of the equal rights campaign.