Prop H8 mostly upheld

[Smoke]

My interpretation is the same as the Court's.

That is not an explanation. Can you explain your interpretation or not?

 

[Sententia]

Interesting commentary on Mormon dilemma here.

Interesting. When will mormons and religion in general learn that believing in superstitious nonsense like prophets and gods does not then qualify them as an authority on morality. (Or really as an authority on anything at all except their flavor of worship and belief)

Men and Women in this country are to be equal in rights. Period. Who they marry doesn't change that.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

Okay, I think I see where the misunderstanding lies between you two.

A revelation wouldn't be necessary for the Mormon Church to cease its political harassment of gay people, and such harassment will end when it becomes more trouble than it's worth to the leaders.

A revelation would only be necessary if the Mormon Church were (for example) to start allowing same-sex Temple marriages. That kind of change isn't likely to occur in our lifetimes, or misanthropic_clown's, either -- if ever.

Re-reading that does seem to be an accurate description of how we may have misinterpreted each other.

I do not consider the churches political activity to be an issue of doctrine, and so if it were to withdraw from the political fight around gay marriage, that would not be a large issue, in fact there are many members who would welcome it. However, to accept gay marriage along heterosexual marriage within the church itself would require a drastic overhaul of fundamental doctrine. I accept the former could happen, but not the latter.

 

[Autodidact]

Are revelations confined to specific subjects? Can a prophet get a revelation about anything God wants to share?

 

[Watchmen]

That is not an explanation. Can you explain your interpretation or not?

Of course I can, but what's the point? You completely ignore what I'm trying to say. In the long run we're on the same side, but it sure doesn't feel like it.

 

[Watchmen]

Are revelations confined to specific subjects? Can a prophet get a revelation about anything God wants to share?

I can't think of any limitations.

 

[Autodidact]

I can't think of any limitations.

So, for example, if it benefited the church to do so, a prophet might get a revelation tomorrow that the Church should not get involved in the next Gay marriage referendum?

Or that Black men should be priests after all?

Or that polygamy is prohibited, no matter how many times and how central the early prophets said it was?

 

[Smoke]

Of course I can, but what's the point? You completely ignore what I'm trying to say.

You haven't used anything but your own unsupported assertions to back it up. You aren't willing to discuss your reasons for what you say. I haven't been ignoring what you say; I've been trying to see if you have anything of substance to say.

 

[Sententia]

Are revelations confined to specific subjects? Can a prophet get a revelation about anything God wants to share?

Religion, gods and prophets have been silent for a long, long time. Those that still think they hear voices or can know gods will and purpose are throwbacks from the infancy of human civilization where just making stuff up was near equivalent to the 'science' of the time.

Suffice to say I don't hold prophets in high regard and think that particular superstitious fairy tale bears no relevance to the subject at hand. Having faith does not equate to science.

The question at hand is simple equality. Homosexuality has been around in all societies and even in the animal kingdom. To deny homosexuality as natural is to deny nature and what you can actually observe in lieu of the postulation that everything natural was brought about by the supernatural and god did it.

 

[Watchmen]

So, for example, if it benefited the church to do so, a prophet might get a revelation tomorrow that the Church should not get involved in the next Gay marriage referendum?

Or that Black men should be priests after all?

Or that polygamy is prohibited, no matter how many times and how central the early prophets said it was?

I can only gather you aren't interested in a serious discussion of the topic of LDS revelation.

 

[Watchmen]

You haven't used anything but your own unsupported assertions to back it up. You aren't willing to discuss your reasons for what you say. I haven't been ignoring what you say; I've been trying to see if you have anything of substance to say.

I've said plenty of substance and you ignore it.

 

[Sententia]

I can only gather you aren't interested in a serious discussion of the topic of LDS revelation.

Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand... Start a new thread and I will play along.

You can start with this.

In the Latter Day Saint Movement
Main articles: Revelation (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith, Jr., and Prophet, seer, and revelator
The Latter Day Saint Movement sets itself apart from most other Christian faiths in regards to revelation. Members of this movement believe that their founder, Joseph Smith Jr., was called directly by God the Father and his son Jesus Christ to restore the church that Christ established on the earth during his life and ministry. The church has claimed constant revelation by the leaders and members of the church ever since that occasion. The Latter-day Saints believe that revelation continues to flow from heaven to the church's leaders, and that the president of the church receives revelation directly from God for the direction of the Church. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and some other Latter Day Saint denominations claim to be led by revelation from God to a living prophet, who receives God’s word, just as Abraham, Moses, other ancient prophets and apostles did.
Latter-day Saints believe in an open scriptural canon, and in addition to the Bible and the Book of Mormon, have books of scripture containing the revelations of modern-day prophets such as the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price. LDS Church leaders (from the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles) have taught during the Church's General Conferences that conference talks which are "...[spoken as] moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture...".[7] In addition, many Mormons believe that ancient prophets in other regions of the world received revelations that resulted in additional scriptures that have been lost and may, one day, be forthcoming. Hence, the belief in continuing revelation.
Each member of the Latter-day Saints is also confirmed a member of the church following baptism and given the "gift of the Holy Ghost" by which each member is encouraged to develop a personal relationship with that divine being and receive personal revelation for their own direction and that of their family. The Latter Day Saint concept of revelation includes the belief that revelation from God is available to all those who earnestly seek it with the intent of doing good. It also teaches that everyone is entitled to personal revelation with respect to his or her stewardship (leadership responsibility). Thus, parents may receive inspiration from God in raising their families, individuals can receive divine inspiration to help them meet personal challenges, church officers may receive revelation for those whom they serve, and so forth.
The important consequence of this is that each person may receive confirmation that particular doctrines taught by a prophet are true, as well as gain divine insight in using those truths for their own benefit and eternal progress. In the church, personal revelation is expected and encouraged, and many converts believe that personal revelation from God was instrumental in their conversion.[8] Joseph F. Smith, the sixth president of the LDS Church, summarized this church's belief concerning revelation by saying, "We believe... in the principle of direct revelation from God to man."[9] (Smith, 362)

And not to be offensive but I find such a belief antiquated and gullible. Then again I dont believe in god either so believing that not only does he exist but he has chosen the handful of LDS here on the planet to openly talk to is ludicrous to me as an outside when so many others speak the same of their religion... Maybe your all right and your various gods will duke it out in heaven... Xenu vrs Jesus Vrs Thor vrs Allah... ACK Loki comes from behind to backstab but is countered by a quick sunbeam from Ra... thinkgs are heating up now... The Aztec and Hindu gods are coming....

Interesting the aztecs would rip open a living humans chest everyday because they feared if they didnt then the next day would not come.

Religions is easy: Dietary Restrictions: XXX, XXX on XXXX... Holy Books: YYYY, Diety: ZZZZ, Special rituals: ABC, Super Secret Stuff: ABC

Wala... You have Scientology or whatever. But neither here nor there.

The question at hand is simple equality. Homosexuality has been around in all societies and even in the animal kingdom. To deny homosexuality as natural is to deny nature and what you can actually observe in lieu of the postulation that everything natural was brought about by the supernatural and god did it. It has nothing to do with LDS revelation.

 

[Green Gaia]

Of course I did. In fact, I predicted the results MONTHS ago.

Good for you. Here's your cookie...

TO EVERYONE READING THIS: The Court did its job. Did you do yours in November???!!!

Yes. I even overdrew my bank account doing my job. Guess I need more money next time.

 

[misanthropic_clown]

So, for example, if it benefited the church to do so, a prophet might get a revelation tomorrow that the Church should not get involved in the next Gay marriage referendum?

Or that Black men should be priests after all?

Or that polygamy is prohibited, no matter how many times and how central the early prophets said it was?

I assume you mean "black men shouldn't be priests after all" given that they have the priesthood now, but it would be possible for the prophet to receive revelation on any of these matters, whether beneficial to the church or not. I think it would be a good idea to start a topic on the matter of revelation, in particular the official declarations of the church which stopped the practice of polygamy and extended the priesthood to all worthy males. I think I will start compiling some material.

 

[Green Gaia]

I have a question. Why and how did the LDS church decide to go after committed relationships of gay and lesbian couples instead of using their wealth and influence in some other way that would not hurt people?

 

[misanthropic_clown]

For any interested in a discussion of revelation and the official declarations, I have opened a thread for you to dump your questions in. I am going to compile some information over the next few days and it would help me ensure I cover everything if you tell me what you want to know. When I have done compiling, I will post the results and the discussion can start from there.

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...1304-revelation-lds-church-question-time.html

 

[Watchmen]

I have a question. Why and how did the LDS church decide to go after committed relationships of gay and lesbian couples instead of using their wealth and influence in some other way that would not hurt people?

I have question. Why don't you start a thread on the topic?

 

[Father Heathen]

I have question. Why don't you start a thread on the topic?

I think it would make a great thread, because it is a good question why religious organizations use their wealth and influence to meddle in politics rather than assist the needy as Jesus would rather have them do.

 

[Watchmen]

Not sure what that has to do with the topic at hand... Start a new thread and I will play along.

I was responding to autodidact. Why didn't you respond the same way to her?

 

[Watchmen]

I think it would make a great thread, because it is a good question why religious organizations use their wealth and influence to meddle in politics rather than assist the needy as Jesus would rather have them do.

Why don't you start it?

Also, your post is an either/or fallacy. Religious organizations can meddle in politics AND assist the needy. We can discuss more if someone starts a thread.