Prop H8 mostly upheld

[The Voice of Reason]

With that in mind why is it that religion is allowed to dictate your laws? People will argue that America is a nation under god, but thats just stupid. We're not in the 1700's anymore.

My country cannot talk, we're just as bad.

It sickens me to death that religion can impact on another persons rights. I've said it before and ill say it again, freedom in our respective countries is only freedom if you follow the christian god. Then you have to freedom to deny others rights while enjoying the best the legal system has to offer.

A good observation, Darkendless.

I do not begrudge anyone their religious beliefs, but it drives me absolutely nuts when someone wants to insist that their views are the "only way", or that others should be forced to kowtow to their God. Bigotry comes in all forms - and should be called for what it is - regardless of who that offends.

I think that, like most other social issues, time is on the side of progress. It (obviously) won't happen in our lifetimes, but someday, this earth will have a government that doesn't espouse or embrace religious leanings. America is (in my opinion) the closest thing we currently have to that ideal, but we just can't seem to get over the hump - to become a truly secular state.

 

[Smoke]

It's not about the Court being bigoted (did you already forget they ruled in favor of gay marriages last year?), but about the Court being asked to interpret a very narrow area of California constitutional law (amendment vs. revision).

Not so. The Court actually ruled on several issues, including whether Prop 8 violated the separation of powers doctrine (no), whether minority rights may be abrogated by majority vote (yes), and whether fundamental rights guaranteed in Article I of the state constitution may be abrogated (yes, the majority's right to portion out rights as they please has greater weight than any portion of the constitution), and whether such rights were abrogated by Proposition 8 (yes, but no big deal).

The Court can't just make stuff up and say "same-sex marriages are legal." They're restrained to hear and rule on the issue before them.

But the Court did just make stuff up. Having found Proposition 8 unassailable, they then refused to put it fully into effect, treating it not as what it in fact is -- a constitutional amendment denying state recognition to same-sex marriages -- but as what it plainly is not -- a statutory provision prohibiting future same-sex marriages.

The decision is sloppy and self-contradictory, and plainly meant to impose the justices' own opinion of what's fair. Of course, if the amendment had targeted virtually any other group, one can be certain their opinion would have been different.

 

[Smoke]

Why would you congratulate us? Most of the LDS on this site opposed it.

What did you do to oppose it?

 

[Smoke]

I always wonder if people who make this argument are stupid, or just being deliberately mean

The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Green Gaia]

Civil rights? Gays have the same rights as straight people. As far as I can tell, California law says nothing about love being a requirement for marriage. A straight woman has the right to marry a man, and a lesbian has the exact same right. A straight man has the right to marry a woman, and a gay man has the exact same right.

Did you really think this through before you wrote that or were you just trying to be rude and offensive?

 

[themadhair]

Tell me, what did Jesus ever say about homosexuality?

Technically he had two dads and a virgin mom.

:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap:clap

 

[Magic Man]

Can you empathize with something you don't agree with? What about the mom that drowns her kids because she's stressed out? Can you empathize with her? Or the child molester that has a strong desire for little girls... can you empathize with him? You can't put yourself in the shoes of people that you will NEVER be.

Just stop. It's very simple. If the government wouldn't allow you to marry the man of your dreams, but you were perfectly able to marry any woman you wanted, would that be acceptable to you?

It's a very simple question. It has nothing to do with child molesting or drowning kids or any of that nonsense. It's just a simple question, and your refusal to answer is very telling.

I would suggest you take your own advice. It's okay for you to not tolerate my beliefs, but if I don't tolerate yours it makes me a bigot. Why does that not make you a bigot?

Because none of us want to take away your rights. That's the big difference. Also, we have very rational reasons for our disagreement with you, which takes it beyond bigotry. Your reasoning is that a book told you what to think, and you need to impose that thinking on everyone else by force. Our reasoning is that homosexuality harms absolutely no one, so there's nothing wrong with people being that way, and further there's no good reason for homosexuals to not have all of the same rights as heterosexuals.

 

[Autodidact]

Can you empathize with something you don't agree with? What about the mom that drowns her kids because she's stressed out? Can you empathize with her? Or the child molester that has a strong desire for little girls... can you empathize with him? You can't put yourself in the shoes of people that you will NEVER be.

As I said, fails the golden rule test.

1. I guess that's what I mean by moral kindergarten. We are all human, all seeking happiness and to avoid suffering, all worthy, and all deserving of compassion. If the sage comes upon a person beating a puppy, she feels compassion for the puppy and the person beating it.

2. Again, moral kindergarten. Do I really have to explain the difference between committed love between two adults and a murderer?

3. It appears that your opposition to civil rights for others stems from your limited ability to empathize with other human beings. I feel compassion for you.

4. Because something violates the odd purity taboos of your religion is not in any way the same thing as being immoral. Jews believe you violate God's law every time you eat a BLT, but do not try to restrict your right to do so. Your opposition to Gay sex is in the same category as kosher dietary rules--applies only to people who follow that belief system, not those who do not believe as you do. To try to impose your religious rules on others is un-American.

So, still don't want to answer my question, hey?

 

[Autodidact]

I would suggest you take your own advice. It's okay for you to not tolerate my beliefs, but if I don't tolerate yours it makes me a bigot. Why does that not make you a bigot?

Because intolerance of intolerance is not bigotry; it's the opposite. No one has any problem with your beliefs or with you following them. It's when you try to impose them on others that we have a problem.

 

[Magic Man]

There are many people that call themselves Christians for different reasons. If they don't agree with the bible, chances are that they aren't really a Christian.

Then, out of curiosity, why do you call yourself a Christian?

 

[Autodidact]

There are many people that call themselves Christians for different reasons. If they don't agree with the bible, chances are that they aren't really a Christian.

And I suppose Jesus Himself put you in charge of deciding which is which?
Hey, don't worry about it, they don't think you're Christian either.
Did you know that the Bible doesn't actually prohibit lesbianism? No matter how you translate it? So how did you decide you get these rules from the Bible? Maybe it's not really the Bible; just your bigotry.

 

[Autodidact]

You weren't talking about love. You were talking about empathizing with people that you don't agree with.

No, you were comparing a pedophile to a Gay person.

 

[Autodidact]

Let me explain why I said that. You can ask every person in here with the title "Christian" what makes them a Christian, and you'll get many different answers. That is what I was referring to. I've actually done that before. You get answers like "I'm not Jewish, so that makes me a Christian", or "I go to a Catholic church", so that makes me a Christian, or "a priest sprinkled water on my head", so that makes me a Christian. The word "Christian" is used to mean so many different things now. That's why people that have accepted Jesus as their savior are starting to call themselves "Born again Christians".

And millions of people who have accepted Jesus as their savior think He's just fine with Gay people and Gay marriage. In fact, there are thousands of churches in the U.S. that perform them. They just disagree with you. So the problem is not your Christianity, and you can give up your religious martyr pose.

 

[Magic Man]

Autodidact made the comment about empathy. I was responding to that comment. Apparently you didn't understand any of it. Again, my point was that you can't make your mind think like someone that you disagree with.

You're not supposed to think like anyone else. You're supposed to think like yourself. The question is how would you think, if you were in that person's situation. You're still yourself. You still have the same mind and opinions, but now you can't marry the man you love according to the government. According to the mind you now possess, and no one else's, how would you feel?

It's very easy for me. I have the ability to marry the person I love, which is why I married my wife. I can then put myself in a gay person's shoes and realize that they can't legally marry the person they love like I did. I can then realize that I would hate to be in that situation.

You see, I'm not gay, but it's very easy for me to put myself in a homosexual's shoes. You should give it a try. Just answer the easy question.

 

[McBell]

You're not supposed to think like anyone else. You're supposed to think like yourself. The question is how would you think, if you were in that person's situation. You're still yourself. You still have the same mind and opinions, but now you can't marry the man you love according to the government. According to the mind you now possess, and no one else's, how would you feel?

It's very easy for me. I have the ability to marry the person I love, which is why I married my wife. I can then put myself in a gay person's shoes and realize that they can't legally marry the person they love like I did. I can then realize that I would hate to be in that situation.

You see, I'm not gay, but it's very easy for me to put myself in a homosexual's shoes. You should give it a try. Just answer the easy question.

It is likened to herding cats, isn't it?

 

[Storm]

 

[Magic Man]

It is likened to herding cats, isn't it?

It took me a minute, but I got this. Yes, it's just like herding cats (or what I imagine herding cats to be like).

 

[The Voice of Reason]

It took me a minute, but I got this. Yes, it's just like herding cats (or what I imagine herding cats to be like).

If you are herding cats, then you are not a true trampolinist.

 

[McBell]

If you are herding cats, then you are not a true trampolinist.

I propose that herding cats whilst on a trampoline is a skill that one should be proud of...

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I propose that herding cats whilst on a trampoline is a skill that one should be proud of...

... if done while mounted on a unicycle, with a blindfold and one arm in a cast ... it's positively saintly.