Prop H8 mostly upheld

[The Voice of Reason]

Can you empathize with something you don't agree with? What about the mom that drowns her kids because she's stressed out? Can you empathize with her? Or the child molester that has a strong desire for little girls... can you empathize with him? You can't put yourself in the shoes of people that you will NEVER be.

Are you smart enough to be able to recognize the difference between murder, child molestation, and love?

If you aren't, just say so.

I already have a good idea of the answer, but I'm giving you the opportunity to answer.

 

[Weddy]

There are many Christians (here on this site) that are fully supportive of the rights of homosexuals to marry. They are not bigoted, and I consider many of them to be very good friends.

There are many people that call themselves Christians for different reasons. If they don't agree with the bible, chances are that they aren't really a Christian.

 

[Weddy]

Are you smart enough to be able to recognize the difference between murder, child molestation, and love?

If you aren't, just say so.

I already have a good idea of the answer, but I'm giving you the opportunity to answer.

You weren't talking about love. You were talking about empathizing with people that you don't agree with.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

There are many people that call themselves Christians for different reasons. If they don't agree with the bible, chances are that they aren't really a Christian.

This seems terribly unfair of me, but I'm going to ask you a very basic question. Have you ever heard of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy? It is one of the logical fallacies that relies on ambiguity.

If you don't know what it is, or you have never encountered it, please take four minutes out of your day, and gain a modicum of education:
No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In essence, you are merely equivocating the term "Christian", to have it meet your needs.

 

[darkendless]

I would suggest you take your own advice. It's okay for you to not tolerate my beliefs, but if I don't tolerate yours it makes me a bigot. Why does that not make you a bigot?

Because i support the same rights for everyone, independent of the problem of religion. You're letting your religion base who you think should be allowed to marry, i disagree with that because you're thinking only about yourself, and your needs, not the needs and desires of others.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Are you smart enough to be able to recognize the difference between murder, child molestation, and love?

If you aren't, just say so.

responded to with:

You weren't talking about love. You were talking about empathizing with people that you don't agree with.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

If they don't agree with the bible, chances are that they aren't really a Christian.

On further reflection, I have to say that these people are far more qualified to call themselves "Christian" than you are. They practice Christ-like love, while you wallow in your intolerance.

For what it's worth, I think you really meant to say "If they don't agree with ME ..." not "If they don't agree with the Bible...".

 

[Weddy]

This seems terribly unfair of me, but I'm going to ask you a very basic question. Have you ever heard of the "No true Scotsman" fallacy? It is one of the logical fallacies that relies on ambiguity.

If you don't know what it is, or you have never encountered it, please take four minutes out of your day, and gain a modicum of education:
No true Scotsman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In essence, you are merely equivocating the term "Christian", to have it meet your needs.

Let me explain why I said that. You can ask every person in here with the title "Christian" what makes them a Christian, and you'll get many different answers. That is what I was referring to. I've actually done that before. You get answers like "I'm not Jewish, so that makes me a Christian", or "I go to a Catholic church", so that makes me a Christian, or "a priest sprinkled water on my head", so that makes me a Christian. The word "Christian" is used to mean so many different things now. That's why people that have accepted Jesus as their savior are starting to call themselves "Born again Christians".

 

[Weddy]

Originally Posted by The Voice of Reason
Are you smart enough to be able to recognize the difference between murder, child molestation, and love?

If you aren't, just say so.

responded to with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weddy
You weren't talking about love. You were talking about empathizing with people that you don't agree with.

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Autodidact made the comment about empathy. I was responding to that comment. Apparently you didn't understand any of it. Again, my point was that you can't make your mind think like someone that you disagree with. You may want to look up the word "empathy". It's not the same as "sympathy".

For some reason you decided to bring in the word "love", which wasn't even what we were talking about. You can love people without empathizing with them. Your comments are rude and you take things out of context. Not sure if that's done out of ignorance, or if you just think you're being funny.

The fact that Weddy has never tried or had to empathize with someone whose rights are denied in this way speaks volumes.

Can you empathize with something you don't agree with? What about the mom that drowns her kids because she's stressed out? Can you empathize with her? Or the child molester that has a strong desire for little girls... can you empathize with him? You can't put yourself in the shoes of people that you will NEVER be.

 

[Nanda]

Empathy is the capability to share your feelings and understand another's emotion and feelings. It is often characterized as the ability to "put oneself into another's shoes," or in some way experience what the other person is feeling. Empathy does not necessarily imply compassion, sympathy, or empathic concern because this capacity can be present in context of compassionate or cruel behavior.

Empathy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Nanda]

you can't make your mind think like someone that you disagree with.

Yes, you can. It's called "empathy," and many people are capable of it. Not you, apparently.

 

[Nanda]

Now I'm going to try to imagine what it must be like for a person incapable of empathy...

 

[Al Bundy]

Let me explain why I said that. You can ask every person in here with the title "Christian" what makes them a Christian, and you'll get many different answers. That is what I was referring to. I've actually done that before. You get answers like "I'm not Jewish, so that makes me a Christian", or "I go to a Catholic church", so that makes me a Christian, or "a priest sprinkled water on my head", so that makes me a Christian. The word "Christian" is used to mean so many different things now. That's why people that have accepted Jesus as their savior are starting to call themselves "Born again Christians".

It is nice to see that the Jesus police are out making sure that only the worthy can call themselves "Christian." God forbid Catholics, Mormons, or *SHUDDER* liberals might allege that they are Christians. :redcard:

 

[Zephyr]

Tell me, what did Jesus ever say about homosexuality?

 

[Mister_T]

***MOD POST***

Just a reminder folks that this thread is in the Political Debates section, not the Religious Debates. Let's focus on the political aspects, please.

Thanks.
​

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Autodidact made the comment about empathy. I was responding to that comment. Apparently you didn't understand any of it. Again, my point was that you can't make your mind think like someone that you disagree with. You may want to look up the word "empathy". It's not the same as "sympathy".

Thanks. I never really was sure about that one. I thought that all words that have the same ending sound meant exactly the same thing. Like "witness" and "witless". I always thought they were the same. You've been a great help.

For some reason you decided to bring in the word "love", which wasn't even what we were talking about. You can love people without empathizing with them. Your comments are rude and you take things out of context. Not sure if that's done out of ignorance, or if you just think you're being funny.

Let me reiterate my earlier comment - a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

You are so far off track, that at this point, it isn't even worth the time it would take to explain to you just where you got de-railed.

It would probably be better for all of us if you would just stick to teaching us how homonyms work. Between that, and keeping track of who qualifies as a Christian, I'm sure that your schedule must be awfully full.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

Just a reminder folks that this thread is in the Political Debates section, not the Religious Debates. Let's focus on the political aspects, please.

Getting back to the topic at hand, what anyone believes (from a religious point of view) has no bearing on the debate. As Autodidact pointed out earlier, our laws are not driven from religion, but are (in theory, at least) secular in nature.

 

[darkendless]

Getting back to the topic at hand, what anyone believes (from a religious point of view) has no bearing on the debate. As Autodidact pointed out earlier, our laws are not driven from religion, but are (in theory, at least) secular in nature.

With that in mind why is it that religion is allowed to dictate your laws? People will argue that America is a nation under god, but thats just stupid. We're not in the 1700's anymore.

My country cannot talk, we're just as bad.

It sickens me to death that religion can impact on another persons rights. I've said it before and ill say it again, freedom in our respective countries is only freedom if you follow the christian god. Then you have to freedom to deny others rights while enjoying the best the legal system has to offer.

 

[Sententia]

Tell me, what did Jesus ever say about homosexuality?

Technically he had two dads and a virgin mom.

 

[Comicaze247]

Civil rights? Gays have the same rights as straight people. As far as I can tell, California law says nothing about love being a requirement for marriage. A straight woman has the right to marry a man, and a lesbian has the exact same right. A straight man has the right to marry a woman, and a gay man has the exact same right.

I'm not stupid or mean. I'm just saying that gay people have the same rights as straight people.

So it's "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", unless you're gay and then you get special treatment?

I don't see anything wrong with people marrying someone of another race. What does that have to do with gay rights though?

I think it's pretty childish to call someone stupid because they have a different opinion than you. That just shows that you can't back up your beliefs. "Gee, I can't think of what to say so I'll just say she's stupid."

Nope. Isn't that some Islamic prayer?

Hmmmmmm. Very interesting. I'll have to think about that.

I understand what you're saying. I just don't agree. The bible speaks against homosexuality, but I've never seen anything against mixing the races in the bible. Moses was married to a black woman.

You need to go back and read. Autodidact is the one that brought up the word "stupid". I responded by saying that I'm not stupid.

The shoe would never be on the other foot so the point is moot.

That's what they always say when someone doesn't agree with them.

That would be like me asking you how you would feel if you were someone of the opposite sex, or someone that is a different religion, or a murderer, or a child molester, or a dog. You can't answer that because that's not who or what you are. To guess at how you would think as someone or something else is just ridiculous.

Bigotry? That depends on what you mean by the word. I am devoted to my beliefs, and I don't think I should have to tolerate something I don't believe in. Just because I don't agree with same sex marriage doesn't mean that I hate homosexual people. I don't.

Are you bigoted against Christians? You seem devoted to your beliefs, and intolerate of Christians. What's the difference?

Can you empathize with something you don't agree with? What about the mom that drowns her kids because she's stressed out? Can you empathize with her? Or the child molester that has a strong desire for little girls... can you empathize with him? You can't put yourself in the shoes of people that you will NEVER be.

I would suggest you take your own advice. It's okay for you to not tolerate my beliefs, but if I don't tolerate yours it makes me a bigot. Why does that not make you a bigot?

There are many people that call themselves Christians for different reasons. If they don't agree with the bible, chances are that they aren't really a Christian.

You weren't talking about love. You were talking about empathizing with people that you don't agree with.

Let me explain why I said that. You can ask every person in here with the title "Christian" what makes them a Christian, and you'll get many different answers. That is what I was referring to. I've actually done that before. You get answers like "I'm not Jewish, so that makes me a Christian", or "I go to a Catholic church", so that makes me a Christian, or "a priest sprinkled water on my head", so that makes me a Christian. The word "Christian" is used to mean so many different things now. That's why people that have accepted Jesus as their savior are starting to call themselves "Born again Christians".

Autodidact made the comment about empathy. I was responding to that comment. Apparently you didn't understand any of it. Again, my point was that you can't make your mind think like someone that you disagree with. You may want to look up the word "empathy". It's not the same as "sympathy".

For some reason you decided to bring in the word "love", which wasn't even what we were talking about. You can love people without empathizing with them. Your comments are rude and you take things out of context. Not sure if that's done out of ignorance, or if you just think you're being funny.

Now, I had a response for each of these, but they've already been covered, and I just don't feel like taking the time to respond in words. Honestly, I don't think there are words to describe my reactions to you. So in short: