Prophet Jesus PBUH commanded people to be Muslim

[Kirran]

and its Koine Greek use MUSHLAM notion, right?

No!

That is a word which shows up in the TRANSLATION into Hebrew. The word 'Musham' does NOT show up in the original text written in Koine Greek.

The only notion this word refers to in the Bible is that of a 'disciple', a student of a teacher. This is hardly an idea exclusive to Islam. The idea of a disciple or student shows up in pretty much every tradition of any kind that I've ever heard of.

 

[rosends]

can anyone with a Greek concordance of the Christian bible check to see if the word cited in the Koine appears elsewhere, and if so, how it is translated later into English and Hebrew? Is it consistently rendered as "mushlam" regardless of context or not?

 

[use_your_brain]

No!

That is a word which shows up in the TRANSLATION into Hebrew. The word 'Musham' does NOT show up in the original text written in Koine Greek.

The only notion this word refers to in the Bible is that of a 'disciple', a student of a teacher. This is hardly an idea exclusive to Islam. The idea of a disciple or student shows up in pretty much every tradition of any kind that I've ever heard of.

and Mushlam in hebrew word is not wrong either.

 

[LuisDantas]

can anyone with a Greek concordance of the Christian bible check to see if the word cited in the Koine appears elsewhere, and if so, how it is translated later into English and Hebrew? Is it consistently rendered as "mushlam" regardless of context or not?

That may be what Wizanda did in post #19 of this very thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...nded-people-to-be-muslim.183043/#post-4566913

 

[rosends]

That may be what Wizanda did in post #19 of this very thread.

http://www.religiousforums.com/thre...nded-people-to-be-muslim.183043/#post-4566913

I know no Greek so I can't be sure, butI don't think so -- in that post, he looks at
G2675
καταρτίζω
katartizō
Total KJV Occurrences: 17
perfect, 5
Luk_6:40, 2Co_13:11, 1Th_3:10, Heb_13:21, 1Pe_5:10
make, 2
Heb_13:21, 1Pe_5:10

Whereas the recent claim was that the word in question is μαθητὴς . I don't know which is right.

 

[Kirran]

and Mushlam in hebrew word is not wrong either.

But it's not the original. So using it as the basis for an argument as you did doesn't work. You didn't realise the Hebrew wasn't the original, that's fine.

I too have made such mistakes

 

[LuisDantas]

and Mushlam in hebrew word is not wrong either.

No, it is not wrong. But it is not really any different from pointing out that religious texts encourage their people to behave in proper ways.

There are words for "proper" or similar meanings in pretty much all languages. Only a very limited language with little practical purpose could affort _not_ to.

What is understood to be proper belief or behavior will however vary, and boy, does it ever vary!

Attempting to see an endorsement of Islam as it relates to the Qur'an and Muhammad just because words that mean "proper" are used in other texts strikes me as a significant failure at the basic understanding of those texts. We should discuss what is proper (as in ethical) instead.

 

[Kirran]

I just looked up Luke 6:40. Maybe different words have been translated as mushlam in different cases.

 

[rosends]

I just looked up Luke 6:40. Maybe different words have been translated as mushlam in different cases.

It might be interesting then, to work backwards -- find a HEBREW concordance of the Gospels and see how often the word Mushlam is used and then go back and see what Greek words get translated into that Hebrew word.

 

[Kirran]

It might be interesting then, to work backwards -- find a HEBREW concordance of the Gospels and see how often the word Mushlam is used and then go back and see what Greek words get translated into that Hebrew word.

That should be relatively straightforward. Although it seems like it'd be good to get a biblical Greek-speaker in on this, we have a handful around.

You can cover the Hebrew end, I take it, rosends?

 

[rosends]

That should be relatively straightforward. Although it seems like it'd be good to get a biblical Greek-speaker in on this, we have a handful around.

You can cover the Hebrew end, I take it, rosends?

I don't have a Hebrew concordance of the gospels, just of the Judaic texts.

 

[Ingledsva]

can anyone with a Greek concordance of the Christian bible check to see if the word cited in the Koine appears elsewhere, and if so, how it is translated later into English and Hebrew? Is it consistently rendered as "mushlam" regardless of context or not?

Here it is - mathētēs - it just means learner, disciple, etc. It does not mean a Muslim.

There were no Muslims at it's writing, - so it obviously can't mean Muslims.

Luke 6:40 ουκ εστιν μαθητης υπερ τον διδασκαλον αυτου κατηρτισμενος δε πας εσται ως ο διδασκαλος αυτου

Luke 6:40 Never existed a learner/disciple above the instructor: his perfection moreover exists according to his instructor's.

The normal KJV translation -

Luke 6:40The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

It is used 268 times in the NT - always meaning learners/disciples.

Edit - I forgot to add that they seem to be misunderstanding the translation - as the verse before this one says

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

It is just saying a student is ONLY as good as his teacher.

*

 

[Muffled]

it is not a false quote it does exist in the bible. in Luke 40.

There is no Luke 40 so it must be a typo on your part.

 

[Muffled]

Here it is - mathētēs - it just means learner, disciple, etc. It does not mean a Muslim.

There were no Muslims at it's writing, - so it obviously can't mean Muslims.

Luke 6:40 ουκ εστιν μαθητης υπερ τον διδασκαλον αυτου κατηρτισμενος δε πας εσται ως ο διδασκαλος αυτου

Luke 6:40 Never existed a learner/disciple above the instructor: his perfection moreover exists according to his instructor's.

The normal KJV translation -

Luke 6:40The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

It is used 268 times in the NT - always meaning learners/disciples.

Edit - I forgot to add that they seem to be misunderstanding the translation - as the verse before this one says

Luke 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

It is just saying a student is ONLY as good as his teacher.
*

I like this translation. It makes sense in the context. The KJV is extrapolating the perfection of God into the translation inappropriately in my opinion.

I believe your conclusion fits the context.

 

[J. F. Gallant]

I mean in the hebrew version of Luke.
They use the Word Mushlam which is identical to Muslim.
Western christians dont know this because they read bible translated from Greek. Jesus pbuh didnt speak greek.


So Jesus pbuh says by becoming Muslim/Mushlam someone can be equal to teacher.

Shalom=Salam
Machamadim=Muhammadim(im is respective words just like Eloh-im).
So Machamad becomes Muhammad without the "im" respective word.

Actually, any Hebrew version of any Gospel will have been translated from the Greek and/or Latin. If you want greater accuracy, you would need to refer to the Greek and Latin copies.

Also, the word "muslim" merely means "submitter," and can actually apply to anyone who subscribes to any religion in which he/she submits to the doctrine and/or proposed god of that particular religion.

 

[viole]

By Him in whose Hands is my Soul, the command of Prophet Jesus pbuh reminds me of Noble Quran


133. Or were you witnesses when death approached Ya'qub (Jacob)? When he said unto his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We shall worship your Ilah (God - Allah), the Ilah (God) of your fathers, Ibrahim (Abraham), Isma'il (Ishmael), Ishaque (Isaac), One Ilah(God), and to Him we submit (in Islam)."

And


But when Jesus perceived disbelief on their part, he said: Who will be my helpers in Allah's way? The disciples said: We are Allah's helpers: we believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we are Mushlams/Muslims.

Now look what Bible says:





Ein talmeed na'leh 'al rabbo; shekken kal adam she'MUSHLAM yihyeh k'rabbo."

Translation in English: "No student can be above his teacher, but everyone that is a MUSLIM, can be as his teacher."

Evidence from the English translation of Luke 6:40 that further prove that the word 'Muslim' was used by Jesus:

Luke 6:40 (KJV) The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Luke 6:40 (Darby)
The disciple is not above his teacher, but every one that is perfected shall be as his teacher.

Luke 6:40 (Young's Literal Translation)
A disciple is not above his teacher, but every one perfected shall be as his teacher.

Luke 6:40 (21st Century King James Version)
The disciple is not above his master, but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

Luke 6:40 (American Standard Version)
The disciple is not above his teacher: but every one when he is perfected shall be as his teacher.



So to be like the teacher, we should become Mushlams/Muslims.

So, Jesus told everybody to become Muslim and, at the same time, He converted water into wine at a party?

Did Allah help Him to perform that miracle?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Ingledsva]

I like this translation. It makes sense in the context. The KJV is extrapolating the perfection of God into the translation inappropriately in my opinion.

I believe your conclusion fits the context.

Yep, many verses are mistranslated, and misunderstood.

The here a little - there a little, - being a very good example.

Christianity teaches that this is good, - while the text is actually saying this haphazard teaching is causing people to err.

EDIT - I forgot to say thanks. I like my translation better too.

*

 

[leibowde84]

I didnt make up the Mushlam word.
U can ask Non-muslims/non-Mushlams for confirming.

The word didn't have the same meaning at the time it was used in the Bible. Thus, it is not a call in any way to Islam, as you claim. It is merely a coincidence.

Why would you think that the mere use of the word "Mushlam" would be a reference to Islam? Seems kinda silly.