Proselytizing: What is it and is it a good or bad thing?

[Dawnofhope]

I view it as a direct contradiction between Christianity and the practice of its members. It's essentially the questions that arise from those who claim Christianity is a full self-sufficient religion hence the verse Luke 19:40 vs the statement of going out into the world and "spreading the good news" that many Christians interpret as a requirement for proselytization.

Old Wineskins can not contain new wine (Matthew 9:17). That which was necessary for a bygone era is no longe suited for today.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Fake ''religions'' trying to take over. Trying to spread on people. A true religion never forces itself on people. In my opinion.

Every true religion enables those who seek its shelter the means to independently investigate the nature of reality and determine for himself what is right or wrong, true or false.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, unfortunately these days the term “proselytism” has been used to mean forcible conversion of one kind or another. The Bible does not support such a practice, nevertheless one could argue if one believes ones religion or denomination has the truth and by engaging with them is the only way to gain salvation wouldn't they be remiss not to tell others. Certainly in the bible the disciples carried out house to house ministries and spoke about the scriptures in public places.

I have no problem if someone wants to discuss matters of religion as long as they use reason and logic as opposed to tradition, I find one can quickly discover corruptions and untruths.

If one believes their religion is the only means to either truth or salvation then this surely is both a corruption and untruth. How can such a belief be considered rational or logical?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Yes, Muslims are in a Covenant relationship with God.
The Quran is the verbatim revelation from God in Arabic. Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad were Prophets and Messengers of God.
In the Quran even a dialogue with Jews and Christians is anticipated; "say, We believe in the Revelation that has come down to us and in that which came to you: our god and your God, is One; and it is to Him we bow in submission and peach" (2946)
According to the Quran Jesus and the patriarchs and Prophets of ancient Israel could be called "Muslims" in the sense of being persons who submitted their mind and hearts and wills to God and called others to do the same.

It is truly music to my ears to read such words from a Christian.

 

[Dawnofhope]

But that's why I love those who teach about their own beliefs, who get out there and talk about it, sing about it, knock on doors and are sincerely attempting to tell me about it. Knowledge is always a good thing. Learning about new ideas, different beliefs, ....wonderful. I love it. I love finding the truth in other beliefs, and relating their truths to mine.

And yes, if the opportunity arises, I'll tell them my truths in return. If someday that causes someone else to think, to pray, to change their minds about something, who could ask for more?

In the meantime, I'll just argue about everything else. That's fun too.

Many of us feel our faith is best as you do. However what works for me won’t work for you. What is best for you is not best for me. I too love the discussions and fellowship with those of differing faiths. However, the Baha’i Faith teaches if two people argue about religion they are both wrong.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Jesus is the only way? There is no other name by which we can be saved? Yeah, I think they base it on their interpretation of the gospels.

The Gospels themselves are true, and that’s what Baha’is and Christians can agree on. The interpretation is where we differ and that’s fine.

Also, I think it was a good thing that the Protestants broke away from the Catholic Church. Now, to give the Baha'i beliefs a little shout out, it would be better if both the Protestants and Catholics would take on some of the beliefs of the Baha'i Faith. The world is a mess right now and the Baha'i beliefs of racial, gender and religious unity would sure be a big help.

The schism between Catholic and Protestant appears inevitable in hindsight. Significant proportions of Europe died as a result of the wars that followed. It’s hard to see that as a good thing. The shattering of the religious orthodoxy that had little to do with Christ was certainly a positive.

Where I live people are much more interested in racial and gender equality than Protestant vs Catholic. The movement to build religious unity appears to have gained considerable momentum in the twenty first century.

 

[Dawnofhope]

And are Hindus in a Covenant relationship with God?

The language is very Abrahamic and so readily comprehensible to Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha’is. It is not the language of Buddhism or Hinduism. Similar concepts may be interwoven with the Eternal Dharma, Karma, rebirth and enlightenment.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What do you do when religions go bad? When they call for people of other religions to convert or be killed? What do you do when Baha'is go bad? Aren't they kicked out and shunned and labelled "Covenant Breakers"? So there is a point in which religious people's beliefs and behavior can't be tolerated.

But I've also seen Baha'is and people of other religions go at it. So love and tolerance might be the ideal, but in reality, people find something to believe in and sometimes, some people fight very hard to defend those beliefs... and show very little love or respect for the people of the other religion. I'd say that most of the Baha'is here have grown quite a bit in their knowledge and understanding of people from the other religions. But, I wouldn't say that all Baha'is here have shown love and respect.

As far as the devil, the resurrection, reincarnation and all the other things that Baha'is disagree with that are believed by others, I don't mind the debating, or sometimes arguing, that your beliefs are right are theirs are wrong. For me, that's what makes this forum interesting. But, like I said, when that arguing that the Baha'is beliefs are better, truer, more current... sometimes.... it doesn't sound like Baha'is have love and respect for that person and their beliefs. But, it is getting better.

We often get it wrong but that is us not the ideal and we Baha’is are far from the ideal. It may take centuries before we are a shining example but at this stage your criticisms I agree with. Often love is missing or we just argue to win but we must be brought to account and challenged to be better, to live up to our professed beliefs and you should continue to do that because we need it.

We are just ordinary people and like anyone who breaks the rules we must be brought to account and hopefully learn, change and be better for it.

I believe we are all here to learn and moderation is one very important part of that learning. Not to be fanatical, or extreme or carry anything to excess. Religion today I believe means to have values, be normal and be of benefit to others not a cause of suffering or hurt but many religionists often get that wrong because we are human and it will take a long time to bring about real change.

The main purpose of religion I firmly believe is always to be a cause of love and friendship between people. If people use it for evil intent then they do not understand the true purpose of religion which is not to convert or conquer but to join and knit hearts together as one family.

 

[Vinayaka]

I agree, I have left that site for some time now. I see a significant part of it as a bad reflection on the name of the Baha'i Faith. There has been many very ordinary posts allowed to continue. Early on I added to some of that, but wisdom is learned with the living of life and one can not always get it right.

Over time many have offered to help the moderation, but I guess it is hard to let go.

Regards Tony

Regards Tony

Forums come and go. Personal interest ebbs and flows. The mod team here is ever changing, so this one had a more solid foundation.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Proselytizing can mean different things to different people. Some people may feel a duty to proselytize as part of their faith. Others may use the word in a pejorative way to criticise others who 'teach' their faith to others while insisting on being above whatever they perceive the word to mean.

So what is proselytising? To me it means trying to convert people from one religion or worldview to another. Personally I wouldn't try to convert anyone to my religion, but if someone had questions about my faith or were interested to learn I would certainly help them. If someone wanted to join my religion, if I believed they were sincere and understood what my faith was about, I would certainly assist them in their journey to become part of the worldwide community of my faith. So none of this I would consider proselytizing. I would avoid any manipulation, coercion or deception which certainly runs contrary to the truthfulness and trsutworthiness that is at the foundation of any genuine religion.

Proselytizing on religious forum is against the rules btw. Some of you may be aware of rule 8:

8. Preaching/Proselytizing
Creating (or linking to) content intended to convert/recruit others to your religion, spirituality, sect/denomination, or lack thereof is not permitted. Similarly, attempting to convert others away from their religion, spiritual convictions, or sect/denomination will also be considered a form of preaching. Stating opinions as a definitive matter of fact (i.e., without "I believe/feel/think" language, and/or without references) may be moderated as preaching.

RF Rules

I've certainly experienced a great deal of proselytizing during my time on RF and have been accused of it myself.

So what is proselytizing to you and is it a good or bad thing.

It's a term just short of brainwashing.

Attempted brainwashing, perhaps.
Or attempting to clear the path towards further, more thorough, brainwashing.



Personally, I think it's just a bother.

It's a bit like people "campaigning" to get folks to come to a party or store or whatever.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I can see why you would think that about pioneering. I don’t think of it in the same way. Pioneering is simply making available the Teachings and community of a faith for those who are interested.

.... like those racks in hotel lobbies with brochures about local attractions.

Those racks of brochures are also a sales tool.

I agree that if someone is going to take the time to share their faith with another, they need to be open and reciprocate being prepared to listen as well. Communication is always a two way street.

Yet I can't say I've ever met a proselytizer who was ready to abandon faith in their god and join me in atheism.

There will always be varying degrees of capacity to explain one’s beliefs and experiences with another. You seem to have very high expectations of others in this regard.

If someone was proselytising to me I’d take a different approach.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

True, and not mentioning my faith doesn’t mean I’m not proselytising!

How would you proselytize without mentioning your faith?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of course this is not true of the online universe, but the wisest thing I know in this area is that how people live is the best advertisement for their beliefs.

I'll give a real-world, non-religious example. When I was in college studying chemistry, I took a genetics course. The genetics professor was so enthusiastic and excited about his career that I almost switched majors. His enthusiasm was contagious.

He did not have to advertise that his area of study was wonderful, his behavior conveyed it.

I don't think this is a good way to proselytize at all.

When you have lots of people of a wide spectrum of belief systems all happy, enthusiastic, caring, successful, or whatever, this doesn't suggest to anyone paying attention that they should adopt one of those religions; it suggests that religion is irrelevant.

 

[Vinayaka]

.... like those racks in hotel lobbies with brochures about local attractions.

Those racks of brochures are also a sales tool.


Yet I can't say I've ever met a proselytizer who was ready to abandon faith in their god and join me in atheism.

There will always be varying degrees of capacity to explain one’s beliefs and experiences with another. You seem to have very high expectations of others in this regard.

If someone was proselytising to me I’d take a different approach.

[/QUOTE]

Back when our neighbour house across the back fence was home to Mormon missionaries for a couple of years, in 6 week stints, there was one missionary that actually asked questions without intent to proselytise. He was legitimately curious about us, and our version of Hinduism. (Near the end of his 12 week stay there) It was really refreshing, yet I believe the only time in my life I can remember it happening.

 

[pearl]

The language is very Abrahamic and so readily comprehensible to Jews, Christians, Muslims and Baha’is. It is not the language of Buddhism or Hinduism. Similar concepts may be interwoven with the Eternal Dharma, Karma, rebirth and enlightenment.

There are some points shared between Hindu's and Christians. In a dialogue with ecumenical Christians
discussed the hiddenness of God as it is understood in the Hindu text Bhagavad Gita and the Christian classic the Mystical Theology of Dionysius the Areopagite, the hiddenness of God from the perspective of Vaishnava Hinduism, with the assertion that the Great Secret of the Hindu sacred text is the passionate love that God has for his creatures and the longing God has of receiving a return of this love. God's relationship to the world—a relationship that is presented to the world in hiddenness—is the occasion of very real pain and sorrow. This concealment of God, which is similarly expressed in the Christian mystical tradition, produces in humans a yearning for ever greater disclosure and, ultimately, union.
While not a covenant in the sense of the Abrahamic, I would think it nonetheless a distinct relationship of commitment to God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

A father makes love to his daughter ... he really loves his daughter, but the Law is not on his side in most countries. Why is that?

That may have been OK for Lot and his daughters, but that is not the only way to love a daughter. Moreover, Hindus consider daughters a form of the Mother Goddess. In many regions, a girl is referred as 'Mother', ('ma', amma'). A father should not allow the daughter to touch his feet except when she is leaving his home after marriage.

And are Hindus in a Covenant relationship with God?

Hindus are in a covenant with 'Dharma' (Duties and righteous action) rather than deities. Even deities are in a covenant with 'Dharma'. When they err, they are known as 'Ranachod', one who ran away from a duel (Lord Krishna). 'Dharma' is the bed-rock of Hinduism.

That which was necessary for a bygone era is no longe suited for today. .. If one believes their religion is the only means to either truth or salvation then this surely is both a corruption and untruth.

I hope you understand what you are saying.

The main purpose of religion I firmly believe is always to be a cause of love and friendship between people.

How do you achieve that when you maintain that teachings of all other religions, older or newer (Ahmadiyyas, later than Bahais), stand corrected by Bahaullah?

How would you proselytize without mentioning your faith?

It is always there on the upper right corner of any post.

.. the hiddenness of God from the perspective of Vaishnava Hinduism, with the assertion ..

As you say, it is a sect-specific scripture if taken in totality, but it also contains atheist wisdom (it is a compendium), that is why I respect it though I am a strong atheist Hindu. I take from it what I like and disregard the theist stuff.

 

[whirlingmerc]

And are Hindus in a Covenant relationship with God?

There are several covenants in the Bible. The covenant with Noah is one and would apply to Hindu's but that's mainly a promise not to destroy the earth with another flood.

There is an Abrahamic covenant to bless the world through a seed (singular) a descendent and that would be Jesus. The main covenant is made with Jesus and the church in Christ bought by his death and resurrection and the adoption in Christ.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Proselytism is just peddling your religion to try to convert people. It's bad, imo, because it's disrespectful and arrogant to presume that you know a person's spiritual needs better than them and that everyone should convert to your religion because it's supposedly superior. It can also lead to cultural genocide and disruption of indigenous communities. People need to mind their own business, basically.

 

[stvdv]

There are several covenants in the Bible. The covenant with Noah is one and would apply to Hindu's but that's mainly a promise not to destroy the earth with another flood.

There is an Abrahamic covenant to bless the world through a seed (singular) a descendent and that would be Jesus. The main covenant is made with Jesus and the church in Christ bought by his death and resurrection and the adoption in Christ.

In Hinduism there are Covenants with the Divine also. So it's not only Christianity that has Covenants.

 

[Vinayaka]

In Hinduism there are Coventants with the Divine also. So it's not only Christianity that has Covenants.

Covenant has several meanings, from when I looked it up. Some of them do indeed apply to Hinduism. We take vows of many kinds, including various dikshas, marriage, and the like. Some are lifetime, while other vows are temporary. It's considered adharmic, but not sinful to break such promises.